my mother takes two medications that she never takes, because it's normal to explode everyday at the oldest dependent, treat her mother, (whom she has literally bled dry financially) like an intellectually challenged person, and let her husband manipulate her.

is this normal activity in a normal household, or is this dysfunction?

http://www.pajamasandcoffee.com/?p=321

You sound like you've got some bright children, and I was happy to hear that you're using a response cost approach with your seven year old (putting a quarter in a jar when he does an undesirable behaviour). That's a much better alternative to spanking. But I've said all I can say about this. This forum is not the best venue to do this topic proper justice.

I am concerned, though, about where you are getting your information on parenting. What training do Michael and Debi Pearl have regarding developmental psychology? Last I checked, there's been a ton of controversy surrounding them and their book "To Train up a Child." He's a minister, right?

I'm sorry, but from an ethical perspective, I don't think a pastor can speak to this as well as a child psychologist can. I would never get investment advice from a plumber, nor would I seek advice from an ear, nose, and throat doctor about my heart condition.

You mentioned that you wished you had more time to research this. Where do you do your research besides Michael and Debi Pearl? If you took the time to research this through more reputable means, you would know that research on spanking, which is actually considered corporal punishment, looks at children of all ages. The research is correlational because it is not ethical to place one group of children in a control group while you place another group of children in an experimental group that gets spanked and then measure the differences. That should be a huge clue as to why it's not okay to spank. So yes, it's not causal, but the correlations are pretty damn convincing.

The data about spanking comes from hospital records, social workers, psychologists, etc., from existing cases, so yes, every possible scenario is accounted for (spanking out of anger, consistent spanking, you name it).

Again, I can't stress enough that people should invest the time to speak with a developmental psychologist if they have any questions about parenting. There are many social programs available to help parents who have questions (social workers, hospitals often have child development staff, university psychology departments, etc.).

I'm also pretty confident that the average household spends at least $100 – 300 on parenting books – that money would go a long way with a developmental psychologist and people would offer more objective and accurate information.

Good luck with your parenting.

Glen

Now onto the topic of research. I believe I did not explain myself well. What I meant to say was that spanking research seems to be based on studying the effects of spankings on older children or adults who were spanked in the past. Are there current studies being done on children who are being spanked DURING the actual study and carrying the study long-term over say 20-40 yrs? And do they differentiate the differences between spankings in these studies? (Occasional vs. everyday spankings; spankings done out of anger of the parent vs those done in a controlled well-meaning way?). I wish I had more time for more research; however currently I am more involved in my passion of teaching younger mothers how to be better mothers and wives, and how staying home can be better financially and emotionally for the family. I did a lot of research when I had my first child. I even tried time-outs and other methods as I was against spanking when I first became a parent. However once I tried swatting at an early age, there were remarkable changes in the whole atmosphere of our home. My children no longer continued to misbehave all day and there was no longer any chaos. But again I will stress that I did not all-out spank my children nor invoke fear in them by being angry with them. Out of all the parenting books I read, the one that worked was "To Train Up A Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl. They explained that spanking was not horrible when used correctly and when there was a good bond between parent and child. They do not stress spanking, rather they stress building a solid relationship with your child, training, and teaching.

It has been rather nice to banter back and forth on this topic. It is a hot topic for a lot of people...rightfully so. But I will leave with a thought to ponder...abuse in any form is always WRONG. Abuse does NOT have to be in the form of physical abuse. The worst abuse I have seen (and experienced) is emotional neglect....growing up feeling like even your own parents do not care about or love you....you become just another responsibility of your parents that has a shelf life of 18 years.

This is obviously a hot issue. I used to be pro spanking before I took courses in developmental psychology, learning and conditioning, behaviour modification and, more importantly, before I became a parent.

Let me ask you a question: At what age do you think it's appropriate to stop spanking?

My guess is you'd say 10 or so, like most people do. So another question is why would you stop spanking if it's such a good form of discipline? If spanking is not acceptable or effective for older children, why is it acceptable for younger children? In other words, why does it have a limited shelf life? (Rhetorical questions.)

As for research, go to your local library (better yet, a university library) and search peer-reviewd journals. You'll find a ton of current information on spanking. For now, check out this link:

http://www.nospank.net/nl.htm

Lastly, I think you misinterpreted some of what I said:

- I never said spanking was used for long-term discipline. Rather, I said it was an ineffective form of long-term discipline.

- As for fists, this was rhetorical. My point was that people seldom hear the logic behind any talk when they are about to get beaten or spanked or whatever – they're more concerned about the punishment to come than hearing - much less interpreting or comprehending - any message you have to offer.

- effects of spanking manifest in adolescents and early adulthood more so than in childhood.

Again, research on spanking is CURRENT, and even if it wasn't, so what? If the research speaks for the effects, then how does time change anything?

At least 16 countries have banned spanking. And guess what? Crime rates in those countries have gone down (and these are based on 20 – 30 year trends).

I won't lose any sleep if I don't convince you. I just thought this type of information was a good starting point for many people who are on the fence about spanking. I recommend speaking to a developmental psychologist or at least reviewing accurate literature on child development – and that can be found in university libraries. Much of what's on the Internet is crap.

Good luck!

Glen

Also, when you said: "But when you consider the long-term effects of spanking (and when you realize that kids go on acting up whenever the punisher is not present) can you really endorse it?" I wanted to say yes. Because in all honesty, spanking is not used the same by all parents. Those who hit with their fists or out of anger are WRONG. No child should feel their parents are so angry they want to hit them (the child). That is when fear and depression and anxiety arise. Parents who spank (or switch or swat) in a very matter of fact way and do not show anger or use guilt, AND only use this form of discipline when the offense is severe enough have happy content children. Also when used in this manner, children do not repeat the offense behind their parent's back. I think children who repeat the offenses when no one is looking have parents who are not paying enough attention to their children and whose parents say more negative things than positive to that child on an everyday basis.
If spanking were CORERECTLY researched then there would be other views out there. The thing is those that spank in a positive manner (like myself) are not going to sign up for any research projects due to the ever ending fear of CPS happy people out there. Spanking research is done out of hindsight. If you know of any current research done where the study is currently being done on spankers, please let me know.

Yes, research shows that spanking works. But there are costs and hidden factors involved to consider. Spanking works on the principle of punishment, much like when we get a speeding ticket for speeding, which is the example I'll use to illustrate my point.

When a police officer pulls you over, you get a ticket (punishment) for speeding (behaviour). The next time you see a police car on the highway you automatically check your speed (altered behaviour, negative reinforcement in this case) but you've probably already pushed the brake pedal as a reflex (you don't want to get a ticket again). If you are fast enough, you drop your speed to a socially acceptable limit before you are caught, and you don't get a ticket (no more punishment).

However, what happens when you pass the police car and it’s no longer in sight? What happens when you're on a highway and you're pretty damn sure there won't be any speed traps?

Most people speed again!

This is precisely what children do when they are not in the presence of their punishers (parents): they do whatever it was they were doing that got them spanked. Yes, when children are spanked for undesirable behaviour they seldom act up in front of their parents. But that's about the only time they don't act up. Speeders and spanked children do not internalize the reasons why they should change their behaviour, which is why punishment is such a poor form of long lasting discipline (and I stress long lasting). In other words, we as drivers and children alike do not internalize the reasons why our behaviour is undesirable. We only learn: better not do such in such in front of so and so. Such logic is pretty wooden headed. It’s better to learn: it’s dangerous to speed … I could crash and kill myself or someone else.

But spanking is so convenient for parents because it appears to work immediately and always whenever their children are in their presence. A lot of people are not willing to invest the time it takes to teach their child prosocial behaviours because it takes too long and it’s too difficult. But if you're not willing to do the latter, don't have children.

Don't get me wrong, way easier said than done – especially when parents are tired, stressed, have personal strife, and/or have children with demanding temperaments. But when you consider the long-term effects of spanking (and when you realize that kids go on acting up whenever the punisher is not present) can you really endorse it?

Besides this, there is a ton of research to show that spanking has many undesirable long-term effects: antisocial behaviour, depression, anxiety, aggression, etc. Just do the research and you'll see.

Some final info on punishment: In order for physical punishment to be truly effective it has to be (1) immediate, (2) severe enough to produce sufficient pain which will deter future behaviour, and (3) the punished person has to be fully aware of the contingency between the behaviour and the punishment. Two clear examples of this would be horsing around in a canoe, tipping it, and almost drowning (this meets all three conditions. Another example would be sticking a fork in a light socket, getting a massive shock, and almost becoming electrocuted to death. Comparatively, tipping a canoe in shallower water or when you’re close enough to shore can be fun and doesn’t produce that big of a shock. Same goes for lower voltage shocks: who hasn’t gotten a mild shock from a trick pack of gum or one of those electric staplers? It’s enough to learn not to be fooled again so easily, but it probably doesn’t stop you from trying to fool your friends.

Now who in their right mind would ever spank a child hard enough to frighten him or her enough so that the undesirable behaviour is never repeated?

Children are smart enough to learn a lesson without being spanked.
And to the parents who say, "Oh don't worry, I explain why they’re getting spanked while I’m spanking them or just before or immediately afterwards..." Think about this: the next time you are in a fearful situation, do you really take in everything? Are you in a good frame of mind to absorb the other person's point of view? Just before someone's about to lay a beating on you, do you hear their rhetoric? Or do you pay more attention to their fists?

Glen

Watch your judgement of other parents and your self-congratulatory praise. It tends to come back to haunt you in the end, whether in this generation or the next. A dose of humility never hurts.

I was a teen in the 80's and sometimes it's so hard for me to believe
that the youth has changed so much since then.
Parents don't disapline their children and it's sad to see what
direction children are going in regarding their futures and what kind
of adults they are going to be.

I believe that alot has been lost in todays raising of children.
I've also seen that parents have to pleed and bargain with their
children in order for them to behave... what in the world is that
all about?
Children run their parents and control their parents and it's sickening
to see.
All we have today are brats that dress ridiculously, young girls
showing off WAY too much, and boys wearing huge pants with
their cracks showing or their underwear showing.
Since when has that become a style or fashion?

I believe the youth is lost and their heading into a worst state
of developement and no one is doing anything about it.

I'm a 42 year old woman and believe things should go back
to the way things were.

Children should obey their parents, and be taught not to speak
out of turn, they should be disaplined, and taught to respect
others and have more morals.

And YES, we DO have Bad Mothers / Parents everywhere.

So the bottom line is too many parents are neglecting their children from an early age DUE to the excessive amount of activities they are involved in and/or because both parents work. We all need to take a step backwards and remember what it was like to be a child. What did we really want? I believe the answer is ATTENTION. Kids want to be noticed, listened to, and appreciated. When I wanted to tell my mom something, she barely made eye contact and never really listened because she was always busy doing something else. And the thing is, kids do not need constant attention, just enough to know they are loved and cared about. Saying the words at bedtime will never be enough. Kids get into trouble with sex, alcohol, etc., because they are seeking attention.

BTW: DJ: your comment about spanking is VERY true. If spanking is used correctly, it is extremely beneficial and will not be needed for the length of childhood. Our 3 yr old has gotton the least amount of spankings because after seeing her older siblings get spanked, she learned how to abide by the rules to prevent such occurrences from happening to her. Spanking were few and far between but it saved my kids from the whole ludicrous time-out thing. Time-outs are the most insane crazy thing a parent can do....what do you think the child is actually thinking of while sitting in one spot for so long? They are actually not thinking about what they did and why it was bad. They are thinking of how bad a parent you are for taking them away from their playtime, how alone they feel, and how they can best get away with the bad act the next time. Time-outs breed anger and resentment. I see it all the time with nieces and nephews. I even asked my kids one time if they wanted to sit by themselves for a few minutes or get a "swat" for their bad behavior. Swats won hand down. They know they did something wrong, and the punishment should be quick and to the point especially at an early age. But the best approach by far is prevention. If I want my children to learn to share, I better share my things with them. If I want them to be nice, I should be nice to them, etc, etc. Sounds too simple, but the truth is it works and it works well.