Florida's 'pilot factory'

This is the result of cheap fares. Get used to it.

Many major overseas airlines, like Lufthansa take a non-pilot and provide all the training. These new pilots start flying the line with only a few hundred hours. By the way, the US Air Force does the same thing and those pilots are flying single engine fighters...

So, you can't go by hours alone. It is more about the training process.

Also, your use of the term amateur is misleading. I think Gulfstream requires the people starting in this program to have a commercial license. That is not an amateur... there is no such thing as an amateur license. There is only a Private pilot, commercial, and airline transport pilot.

Howard

After reading the story on the pilots training I found several glaring errors in your report which could have been avoided with a little research of Part 61 of the FARs.

This is just another example of the deteriorating mindset of America. Get rich quick at all costs. Everybody wants something for nothing and nobody wants to take time to do things right anymore and America is suffering for it. The mindset of young people that we are turning out into the workplace today is get something for nothing. Set a goal to get rich by 25. I mean really. It is this mindset that got us in the economic turmoil we're in now. I think we have lost sight of what really makes this country great. We're missing good core values that are needed to create a sturdy foundation on which to build the future.

Gulfstream methods are inexcusable and they should be held accountable for the lost lives of their passagers if they are found at fault. Punishment should be severe enough to make an example out of them in order to discourage others from doing the same.

This article takes pilot training at Gulfstream totally out of context. If the issue is only time in terms of months or years, then how is it that military pilots get their "wings" in one year – ONE YEAR!!- and then transition to fighters and one year later (that's two total my friends) they are certified to fly F16's, F15's, FA18's, etc in COMBAT? The issue of pilot training is not time in terms of months, but focus, good instruction, and hours flying. Lufthansa has a pilot training program headquartered in Arizona, and they take raw recruits and put them through similar (to Gulfstream's program) training as a pathway to flying big commercial jets. Getting basic flight instruction, including up to a Commerical rating (which Gulfstream does), then a lot of time as copilot under a captain's oversight, is an excellent way of training. Gulfstream is rated very highly by all American airlines and their pilots have proven over the years as among the top.

Oh...my...GOD!

Just another example of how our government and all its agencies are killing people.The whole USA is one big rip off to the taxpayers.Lets hope one of these tea parties is a march on DC to get rid of all the SCUM that run this country!!!

Potential pilots should go through Embry Riddle's program. Then they would be qualified to fly.

Give me military trained pilots every time.... All other training is without a doubt inferior.

I believe that just like other professional jobs that require licencesure especially those in the transportation fields should be tested annually! And like many other professional positions regularly attend required continueing education that other professionals ( doctors, nurses, attorneys, pharmacists) MUST attend to keep their license. This would weed out the incompetent fools who somehow slip through. End of Story!!!!!

You're forgetting that the FO on the Comair flight that took off on the wrong runway at Lexington was also a Gulfstream grad. I'm a pilot and Gulfstream is the only carrier in the United States that I won't fly, and won't put my family on. These students buy their way to the right seat in the cockpit – and Gulfstream fails to notify its passengers of this practice. It's like having a med student do your open heart surgery, without the hospital telling you or charging you any less.

Instead of blaming the airlines why don't you report on an American public who is too cheap to pay for the full fare prices that would be required to train proffisional pilots. You get what you pay for. Get over it

As an airline employee, I expect that my flight crew is well trained and experienced to handle all situations that may come up during a flight. To me, it is rather disturbing that this "flight school" would actually put trainees in the cockpit with a Captain and unknowing paying passengers. Personally, I would never get on a plane with a First Officer that has that few hours in the air of experience. Certainly the majority of the flying public would likewise be horrified and consider flying another airline.

Why does the FAA approve this program even though it has much lower standards than other programs? Are the owners friends (campaign contributors) of the Bush family?

We need quality pilots and aviation experts, but colleges are shutting down their aviation programs (mine did) leaving the bulk of airliner candidates to come from rural airports and these pilot mills. If you want degreed aviation professionals, tell your legislators to support collegiate aviation programs.

I would not want these wanna-be's in the right seat of my airline flights. This is truly a scary thing.

Hence, that's why I fly only on the major carriers & not on these fly by night companies...

These guys do OK in VFR weather. Just don't fly with their airlines in bad weather and you'll survive the trip almost every time.

As a professional who must utilize air travel on a weekly and sometimes daily basis, this is not only alarming but downright scary.

I frequently fly Continental from Newark, and did so on the day of the Buffalo incident, and this does make me think about my airline alliances.

I hope the NTSB, Continental, and all airlines review their training partners – and the airline partners (Colgan) – to ensure the safety of their passengers.

The "get used to it" way of thinking does not apply here – a pilot needs a great deal of experience, both practical and theory, when it comes to dealing with the many split-second decisions that can face them.

The USAirways landing in the Hudson River was on good example of how years of experience do matter...

On the other side of the coin, the crash in Buffalo was another...

any pilot knows that without a lack of experience in all types of situations (if not in person, at least in a simulator) will almost likely result in a usually-fatal accident...

I've been around aviation off an on for many years, and know too well what it means for a person to have – or not have enough – experience...

Flight training not only at Gulfstream but a lot of the other so called training acadamies is abysmal at best. These airplane drives, I will not call them pilots, are a ticking time bomb and the system is getting worse all of the time. there are a lot of factors involved but the biggest is money. Unless this system is changed, look for more Colgen Airs.

FYI, I have been an FAA certified Flight Instructor for 41 years.

I wouldn't call the fares they charge from Ft. Lauderdale to Key West cheap – I looked yesterday and it is $315/person for a 1-hour ride – give me a break, can fly from NJ RT to Ft. Lauderdale for much less than that on a real plane.

Do you really think that Continental Express drives the fares for the whole country? As far as I know, no other airline does this, so it's not about low fares. There are plenty of low-fare airlines that have properly trained pilots. We're not talking about an industry-wide practice here, we're talking about one really bad airline.

The difference with military training is that it is much more intensive, selective and competitive. Not everyone can go pay $30,000 dollars and end up in a F/A-18. Also, every minute in the cockpit is spent training – very few of the trainer aircraft have any form of autopilot which ends up doing most of the flying civilian side.

I am an airline pilot, I fly an MD-80. This article is absolutely true, but it doesn't go far enough. There is more concern with Gulfstream than simply lack of experience. These pilots are essentially buying their jobs for $30K. The school has pressure to pass these students and offer them jobs flying passengers otherwise students would not pay the money for their training. It is a huge conflict of interest which is compromising your safety.
The problem is inexperience is found in all regional airlines. New pilots earn less than $20,000/year and due to the low pay, they can only attract the least experienced pilots. All of the regional airlines are gambling with your safety. This practice needs to stop. You need to write your congressman about the problem or this will never end. The public is quick to forget.

Having been a pilot for 30+years It's my opinion the media will sensationalize a tragic event, daily there are numerous events that could turn out tragic, but don't and are not reported. It's because they are not reported no one knows and all is well.
Any pilot that has flown has made mistakes, some are more costly, and create media attention which sells. My flight instructor said that making a mistake is OK, Compounding your mistakes will kill you, and I have carried that little bit of information through life.

I agree completely with Mr. Moore's take on the airline industry and the medicore training that is occuring. This is one industry that really does require that each airline operator hire the best and the brightest. This simply does not occur any more. Co-Pilot's salaries when starting out are far less than even a city bus driver's pay. Some airlines Captain's salaries are dismal also. Unfortunately, it seems that little can be done to attract quality airmen to the business, because the regulations of commercial airlines, cost of fuel, etc. make top quality pilots fall out of the budget. Oh well. I can drive or take trains from now on. Afterall, the new GE Eco Locomotive is far more environmentally friendly than an Airbus 380.

I hate it when reporters write about things they know little about. People commenting below (the ones that know something about FAA procedure and requirements) make good points. Oh, and Suzanne: GO RIDDLE!!! Class of '07!

The number of hours of pilot time is irrelevant. The major airlines arrived at their requirements because of a history of having an almost unlimited pool of over qualified pilots to pick from. The military trains pilots and puts them into combat with only a few hundred hours of flight training. If someone can pilot an F-16 in about 500 hours why would anyone reasonably argue that it takes 1500 hours to qualify someone to sit in the right seat of a commuter airline. Focus on duty hours instead. The practice as outlined in the NTSB Colgan hearings of pilots living hundreds and even thousands of miles away, commuting the day or night before a flight and then getting into the cockpit is far scarier than a 250 hour co-pilot who, unless the captain collapses, essentially has no more serious responsibility than putting the wheels up and down when told to do so.

Our country treats pilots as second class citizens. Not only from the airline industry, but from the "pilot factory" mentioned here. I remember my first instructor. He was from New Zealand. He once said that in his native land, a pilot and/or a flight instructor was hailed as a professional. Someone that was noticed for their commitment and dedication to their selected career. Someone that has paid a considerable sum, not only in monies for training, and then more training, but also for the amount of time and effort to become a professional, competent, and safe pilot. A complete pilot. We may do this for a love of avaition but it would be nice to get paid a reasonable wage as well.

No, Embry-Riddle just puts you $120,000 in debt and ensures you're still a flight instructor when you're in your 40's.

Suzanne May 28th, 2009 10:36 am ET

Potential pilots should go through Embry Riddle’s program. Then they would be qualified to fly.

Direct result of Airline deregulation. Too much competition leads to these kinds of results. No different then the trucking industry, the phone companies or any other business sector that was deregulated.
You cannot expect greedy businesses to properly manage safety.
At the most what you see these low hour pilots do is become a third seat pilot with the ability to gain experience through at least the minimum hours of 1500. I certainly think military flight time should be considered but only if that time is directly related to piloting. Everybody is right that says the cheap air fares have directly affected this kind of training. As a society we should not try and bring costs down just for the sake of more people choosing flight instead of other transportation.

First... I am an airline pilot and I am familiar with the GulfstreamFirst Officer program. I have no affiliation with them nor have I worked for Gulfstream.

All the pilots at Gulfstream Airlines have to pass an FAA checkride with an FAA examiner. So if you can pass the FAA's requirments then why shouldn't you be able to fly passengers around.

Pilots of european and asian carriers are often hired with zero time and come out of school with approx 300 hrs and then receive trainig in large jets and fly the line. So what is happeneing at Gulfsteream is happening at Virgin Atlntic and Asiana.

There are good pilots and there are bad pilotts. If you meet the FAA requirments on a checkride and then don't hold your daily flying activities to the same standard ange get lax you will have problems no matter hwo much time you have.

We should look back even further to where these pilots got their initial training. There are big differences in the education you receive at a good proffesional fligth academy or college and one you will get at a small local school. But in the end it just comes down to the individual and how he/she conducts themselves while in the cockpit.

I've seen horrific pilots with thousands of hours and I've seen great pilots with low time. Low time is not the issue!.

How does one know that a flight is operated by Gulfstream International? Although I try to avoid commuter flights whenever possible, I do have to fly them sometimes. Yet I have never seen Gulfstream indicated on any of my flight itineraries.

No comparison should be made to military pilot training. The intensity, the focus, and the high attrition of military pilot training is beyond reproach by civilian pilots. A monkey can get a pilot's license, but only a very intelligent monkey can make through military pilot training.

Umm...US Air Force pilots train for 2 years before flying at a real base. They might be instructed in-flight, but they're not carrying passengers and the instructor is fully focused on training the student.

This is a result of deregulation. If the government has the right to license automobile drivers, then they can increase the requirements for commercial pilot licenses.

Potential pilots should go through Embry Riddle’s program. Then they would be qualified to fly.

Ha Ha. That got a good laugh from me

To bad journalism (such as this) is'nt held to any standards. Spreading miss information as an occupation should result in time behind bars.

I am a regional captain, and anyone who compares military training to these "corner cutting" pilot mills know NOTHING about the military. Do you REALLY think GIA even compares to air force training?

In the real world experience absolutely does matter, and we should not be building hours in an airliner flying paying passengers around!

I fly with brilliant first officers all the time. They predominently came from a background of flying cargo in smaller airplanes, or flight instructing and teaching others how to fly. Sometimes I fly with one of these pilot factory guys, and I feel like I am all alone in the cockpit. I have to teach them how to fly. I am tired of taking responsibility for an entire aircraft with one of these arrogant, spoiled "I want to be an airline pilot NOW" wannabees.

Look it is very simple.... ask any pilot. The ONLY ones who think that GIA or other pilot mills are a good idea are the ones who took the short cut and attended them. Thats all.

If you dig deep enough into almost everything in this country today, you come up wiith MONEY – how to get it, how to scrounge it, how to steal it or con it from those who have it, and how to keep from paying it, .e, cheap training will produce cheap salarie..

Who certifies Gulstream's school in Florida? Who monitors this school and its instructors? Is it real certifiation or just a license bought and paid for – again MONEY?

If you're smart, you won't fly in bad weather or fly the cheap-seat arilines and hope that the big airlnes aren't trying to cut costs by hiring badly trained pilot s for less MONEY. The savings of a couple hundred bucks isn't worth your life or that of your loved ones.

Those of you citing the military and European carriers ... those pilots are handpicked and selected to receive that training. The difference here is that anyone with a commercial license and $30k can fly for Gulfstream. The USAF and Navy screen their applicants. Gulfstream pilots buy their way in.

The statement in the article about having low time pilots is like seeing a medical student instead of a doctor rings a bell. When I go to my HMO I usually see a Nurse Practitioner instead of a doctor. It all boils down to everybody trying to get by using the cheapest way possible. It doesn't matter about the quality of service anymore, just how much money companies can make while providing the minimum service required.

I guess my brother-in-law chose the wrong school. He went to a school owned by Delta that is also based in Florida. He spent two years, $100k and now works a part time gig at a party store due to the lack of jobs. I sure hope these companies continue to take peoples money and line the pockets of their execs while the newly trained pilots come out owing thousands in student loans while they flip burgers and struggle to support a family.

Many of your posters are misinformed. Ann, FAR Part 121, 125, 135 pilots test to keep their jobs every 6 months and annually. The military's training takes "0" time pilots to fledgling combat pilots using schools perfected since 1911. They've cleaned up a lot of deficiencies in those programs using large amounts of taxpayer money. They're fine programs no doubt. Many airlines use pilots from many programs like Gulfstream's. All airline pilot's receive at least 25 hours of Initial Operating Experience (IOE, line training with passengers on board on revenue flights) after completing their Airline's Basic Indoctrination ground school (2 to 3 weeks), aircraft specific ground (1 to 2 weeks), and aircraft specific simulator training (1 week to 2 weeks). I've been the Line Check Airman who conductd IOE with people from some of these programs for a Regional Carrier. I've had students come to me with as little as 280 hours total flight time and do it in regional jets. As with the military's program, the safety of the situation depends on the basic training received, the maturity of the individual, and the quality of the advanced training at each level. Consistent problems traceable to an individual source raise the red flag of problems/

Ann-Airline pilots are re-qualified every 6 months. Class 1 Physical, Written / Oral Testing and Simulator Training

This is why I always travel via hot-air balloon. It's fool-proof.

And for Ann. Captains are required to perform proficiency checks twice a year, along with an annual recurrent ground school.

This is yet another example of sensationalist reporting. The only one getting rich quick here is CNN, which has basically become a tabloid publication.
The training program described is the same basic program all non-military pilots follow. Whether Gulfstream is a poor teaching facility is a different question. There is no way a pilot can become 'experienced' ie accrue significant flight hours without – flying. So the career path generally looks like: training-flight instructor-regional-major. In 2007, the regionals had a 1000 flight hour minimum hiring requirement.
The airlines invest thousands of dollars in the hiring process for each potential pilot, then $30,000+ for each type of plane they will fly.
They are seriously not going to hire yahoos – not that yahoos are likely to make it through training.
The safety issue rests more with the NTSB and FAA – who need to take responsibility for their many outdated, irresponsible standards. The Buffalo and Lexington crashes were partially a result of pilot fatigue. Maximum flying hours and minimum rest standards should be tailored to the short flights that regional airlines provide., totally different schedules from mainline flights.
Regional pilots are completely overworked and grossly underpaid. What about having 'salary commensurate with responsibility'?? A large part of the blame for that rests with public expectations of cheap airfares.

It's simple really.
The airlines have manipulated the bankruptcy system and the Railway Labor Act, with the support of an anti-labor government, to reduce pilot wages so low that no one with a brain or ability wants the job anymore.
Be a plumber, make more money, home every night, no random drug and urine tests. No long layovers at airport hotels, getting up at 3 AM and getting home the next day at 3AM. No pay cuts while airline executives steal obscene bonuses, no TSA weenies sniffing your breath, etc, etc,
The profession has been destroyed and we, the public, are just beginning to pay the price.

lmao.....spoken like a TRUE IDIOT rj.......

'Plane' and simple...(pun intended) it is the PILOTS FAULT...PERIOD!

if you act as PIC, Pilot In Command, of any airplane, glider, blimp, etc. it is YOUR responsibility ALONE to assure the safety of all people on board.

for a pilot to even consider being PIC, he/she MUST know all there is about the operation of that craft..!!!

the pilot who crashed over buffalo was at the very least, an IMBECILE!

he took command of a craft that he KNEW he was not fully knowledgeable on....it is his fault ONLY!

you don't believe it......READ THE F.A.Rs!

as i stated in my first sentence....rj is an idiot that can barely spell airplane let alone know all the requirements, responsibilities and safety a PIC MUST put into the job of flying.

most of you guys comments on here are pathetic at best....like the one that blames the politicians....NOPE...IT'S STILL THE PILOTS FAULT!

or the first idiot to comment that blames the airlines attempting to make cheaper seats....NOPE...IT'S STILL THE PILOTS FAULT!

or the lady that says going through embry riddles program would have made the pilot qualified to fly....NOPE...IT'S STILL THE PILOTS FAULT!

or eric who is an airline employee blaming the flight school....NOPE...IT'S STILL THE PILOTS FAULT!

did the flight school FORCE the pilot to act as PIC? NOPE...IT'S STILL THE PILOTS FAULT!

the PIC has the ultimate authority over the craft he/she is in command of....not ATC, not the GOV, not the president, not his training school....ONLY THE PIC!

and having that authority the PIC can decide to do, or not do, any action required to keep the craft airworthy and it's occupants safe!

in the case of a pilot not trained enough or knowlegeable enough....yep you guessed it.....IT'S STILL THE PILOTS FAULT!

I do not understand why all the finger pointing to the actual flight school. The school is there to provide "TRAINING". They also provide the opportunity to earn flight hours with a "QUALIFIED" captain in the left seat.

I do not agree with blaming Gulfstream for the mishaps of pilots that graduate from their program. It would be like blaming Harvard University because your attoney lost your case and happened to be a Harvard Graduate.

Most airlines, if not all, provide their own training in simulators prior to putting new pilots on flights. They are trained to fly the specific plane the airlines uses. They are also put through scenarios, including fatal crash environments when in the simulator. Most are also required to do check flights to ensure they know how to fly their specific aircraft.

Lets be honest here. Not every pilot should be a pilot just because they have a license or because they went to a prestigiuos school. You can go to the best schools money can buy, but if you can not retain what you have learned, you will fail.

CNN ....while you are in Florida...go check out Delta Connection Academy. Are you brave enough to expose the problems???????

2nd year students teach 1st year students....the entire system is flawed. The crash at Delta that killed a student and instructor this past winter...check out the ages of the people involved...they were missing 8 hours before Delta noticed they were even up with a plane.

Research the plane that they use, the Cirrus SR-20...it was never intended to be a trainer, even experienced pilots have trouble controlling a spin. Explore the bus loads of foreign students who return to fly in their country with as few as 250 hours.

Trust me, there are plenty of pilots who hold a commercial pilot certificate who are amateurs. In fact, pilots should have extensive experience beyond the commercial pilots certificate to be allowed anywhere near an airliner.

However I do agree that the quality of training does make a difference. But the programs you speak of also have a rigorous screening process. No screening is required to be accepted into Gulfstream International's program. The only requirement is money. I also can tell you that the "training" that Gulfstream provides is not comparable to military or the European programs you speak of.

Really? That's the best scare story you can come up with? Let's try some news. Every professional program requires apprenticeship, it's not like they're flying solo with a plane full of people after a 3 month program. Lowest common denominator...what do we call this..."reporting"?

Well folks, we elected a new President of the United States and he didn't have the required time in office for experience. What's the Difference ???

What do you expect when you are paying these commuter co-pilots less than $30k/year?!?!? I mean seriously, if you want a highly skilled pilot with thousands of hours, you are going to have to pay the price, and hence, the price of the ticket will increase too.

Worrisome, but I have a question:

Everyone wants experienced pilots, but how are they supposed to become experienced if no one wants to hire them because they don't have enough hours?

Is this the same outfit that provided training to the terrorist team of "9/11" Sept 11, 2001?

It is cheaper to deal with lawsuits after the accident then to to pay for properly trained pilots, My entry level 737 Jet pilot (right seat) fully trained and certified at the airline's expense, including salary during training was 80K. The cost of doing bussines !!! . Of course not in the USA, different countries have very different airline regulations and the USA is on the low end of the scale.
Inocent passangers pay with their lives, this is criminal, they get away because the flying public is not aware of what goes on behind the scenes.
It's not safe as it could and should be !!!

I find this information appalling...as a mother of a young pilot, I do not understand how you can get "on the job" training with passengers in the plane...my son has spent long hours training to become a pilot at Embry Riddle University earning his degree as well as completely understanding flight and its implications...he also spent many hours being a flight instructor..all of this before he could even sit in the co-pilot seat...he is still earning his hours so that one day he could sit in the captain's chair...People shouldn't be allowed to pay their way into that position...lives are at stake...you wouldn't let a doctor pay his way into the operating room..

this is the result of greed, and shortcuts to riches

I am deeply troubled that such a program exists, but not surprised. Quality is not considered a necessity in anything anymore in this country. Even more troubling is that a political bent is being put on it by some of your responders. This group has been "training" pilots for years. Why would anyone blame Bush for it when several presidents have served in office during its existence? I am not a Republican. However I find it very distasteful that a vindictive political bent is placed on EVERYTHING today. Let's get politics out of it and get down to what is important to keep America viable and successful!

This article starts to point to the problem, but does not address it. It is true that the major airlines, as well as many corporate flying departments require a minimum of 1500 hrs of time. That time must also include hours that consist of multi-engine and turbine time. The minimum numbers for a commercial license, is 250 hrs. This allows pilots to fly for hire, but NOT to carry passengers. The FAA still requires 1500 hrs to fly Pilot in Command with a scheduled carrier. Therefore, this creates a gap in hours that is a challenge for non military pilots to fill. In my opinion, there is really nothing wrong with the first officer having low time as long as the captain has the experience and the maturity to mentor the co pilot to fill his "gap." What needs to be investigated is the pay level of the regional carriers to make sure that the captains are paid well enough to get the cream of the pilot crop to train and mentor the co pilots and prepare them to move into the left seat.

Ann– Pilots are tested regularly, and your praise of license holders in other fields is a bit off base. Doctors, nurses and paramedics just have to take training hours, no test is given after a license is gained so long as continuing education hours are maintained. Pilots are tested annually at least. Given than building time in a jet can cost over 1000 dollars an hour how else is someone going to get trained with the several hundred hours required? Not too many people I know can afford to fly regularly in a 4 seat light plane, much less a jet. Military pilots fly jets with just a few hundred hours in combat. They say the school has turned out 3 pilots out of more than 1700 involved in fatal accidents....I wonder what the rate is for other training pipelines? This is tabloid journalism at it's best, but then I am used to reporters not knowing anything about the subject they write about.

The individual writing this article should have done more of their homework. Gulf Stream does not take any person of the street with 0 flight time and have them sit in the co-pilots seat. This article is a severe misrepresentation of the program. After completely various licenses, new pilots have to build time and experience. As you correctly noted they need a minimum of 1,500 hours and much of this needs to PIC (pilot-in-command). Yet, where do you go to build up time? Who will hire you to build up? Places like Gulf Stream and others all along the country are legitimate avenues for pilots ot beef up their time and experience before going on to the major airlines. I also question whether or not you are correct on Gulf Stream using these co-pilots on flights with passengers! I have had a number of close friends go through these types of programs and they have not carried paid customers. I suggest you do more homework and be a more sophisticated write. Yes, air traffic has its problems. Humans are prone to error regardless of the industry and unfortunately when error occurs in an airplane many lives are at stake. Regardless, proper journalism should not seek to run company names into the mud in order to find out the exact reason for which a plane crashed. All this does is irriate the populatio of pilots around the world who do their job properly everyday and it does nothing but spread anger into the families who are victims of lose. Be more senstive to everyone involved!

Companies that provide driving lessons with a trained instructor use a car marked "Student Driver". Perhaps the airlines that are giving lessons should mark "Student Pilot " on the fuselage.

As far as military pilots being better...some are, some aren't. I deal with the zipper-suited sun gods on a regular basis..some are first rate, some should not be trusted on a big wheel, much less a jet.

Pay less for your airline ticket, you get a trainee pilot. Pay less for your medical care, you get a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant. And then you hope for the best. It's not complicated.

@ Ann: Any airline pilot does go through rigorous recurrent training, simulator checkrides every 6 months (like an exam you take to see if you can keep your job...every 6 months !!)

@Frank: Experience is very helpful but pointing out the hudson event does not show anything about that, but just a whole lot of LUCK ! Sure, a pilot with only 1500 hours (minimum for Airline Transport Pilot License) might not have done as well, but to point out an incredible remote chance of luck, which many of my fellow airlinepilots have said they would not have been able to replicate, is futile.

Knowing some of the pilots from Gulfstream, and having flown in the same area as their routes for years, I can say that they are not that different from schools from the past : Pay for a seat was in the mid-90's a normal way to work yourself up through the ranks, get experience and find yourself marketable in the ever growing pilotmarket. The pilots I know, are hardworking, professional, experienced guys. They went through a lot at Gulfstream, Like every company, there is always something to complain, but they endured to get to where they wanted to be.. a seat in the flightdeck of an airplane.. and mostly they had themselves to thank for it.

Frankly, I am surprised that Gulfstream still uses those tactics like pay for hours.. I would have thought that that system was outdated. Also many pilots to be need the most and best training/flight hours/ experience in a type of airplane to compete with eachother in this difficult time with so many pilots sidelined.

Please CNN, I hope you will dig deeper than just the surface; use all the tools that are available like the FAR regulations, to get a clear picture accross to the public. If you don't, you will do a disservice to my industry and the people who I see daily as passengers.

This is why I go to Embry Riddle.

This is what you get when you deregulate an industry.

No experience, cheap fares and low wages.

Capt'n Sully they are not... is that what you're trying to tell me?

In the case of Gulfstream International Airlines they are "hiring" their own graduates. However, in the case of any other commerical carrier, the responsibility to ensure pilots are fully qualified and experienced falls solely on the carrier and not Gulfstream Academy.

The focus here should not be on how inexperienced or poorly trained Gulfstream's pilots may be, but rather on the companies who hire them. What does that say about their standards? Let's also not forget that these pilots meet all FAA requirements to fly commercially.

As ex-Navy and major airline pilot, now retired, agree with those surprised and leery of the story's subject, and I will not fly them as well. But there is a far more important note to this, as well as the revelations a couple weeks ago that both pilots had made long commutes and were likely not well rested... due low pay had to live at "home", or even work a second job. That being our need to admit that Deregulation has just not worked!

How many crashes have been from Embry Riddle graduates? How about former military pilots? May as well tally it all up to be fair.
Most importantly – where is the evidence the training program at Gulfstream causes crashes?

I am a pilot with 350hrs and a certified flight instructor all single engine. I do think that Gulf Stream has a good program even though i got my ratings through an accredited university. The problem that most people dont understand is, you cant train a regular pilot like me to fly jet airplanes without putting them into a jet with passengers. Yes initially you train in a multimillion dollar simulator but guess what people, every FOs first flight in an actual Jet is with a load full of paying customers in the back. Training Costs being so high and airplane tickets being so low contribute to this fact. I would say that 99% of pilots flying jets, either brand new FOs or very experienced Captains are ready to handle any problem in the cockpit. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight... DING.

I think practically every comment on here is missing the real point. With flying and practically every other occupation there is a learning curve where "experience" is gained. BUT how does one get that experience because no one can GIVE you that experience? You have to DO the job. What I do the govenment reqires you to have 2 years apprenticeship before you gan get a license, that is fine, but practically every company I actually do the work for work for says they will only take work from someone from a license. So in reality how do they expect ever to have new people come into the field? It is impossible, unless you let the people learn on the job.

To the person who commented on Dr's. Any University Medical school is where the Dr's are PRACTICING on you. Ever heard of the show ER? Half the Dr's on there were RESIDENTS – they are learning! Yet we let them cut and poke on us every day. Does that not seem a bit odd if you think experience is the only measurment of comptency?

So if someone needs experience – and the only way to get it is to do the job – then you have to let them get the practice. Remember the right seat is the co-pilot. The PILOT is in command of the aircraft and so the person that is building hours etc is not actually flying the plane with every responsibility, they are learning. So these people who puff out there chest and say "they need more experience," what the heck do you think they are doing????
It's not money, or cutting corrners, or lack of training. It is simply how humans learn. If they stuck two people who just graduated last week in the plane and said go fly it then that is one thing, but these graduates are co-pilots just as they should be. They build hours and then more over time. Sure the large airlines may cream off the people with the most hours but the only way to get to 1,500 hours is to start at 1 There is no other way to do it, so don't be such hypocrites. Every job has a learning curve and we have to expect and give people a chance to learn or any skill will die out.

So unless someone can prove they put two new pilots into a plane and said "fly it" and neither had ever flew that model before then get over it. They were doing what they were supposed to do.

to old school:

Do you have ANY idea of what it costs to train in a commercial jetliner? The per-hour cost of fuel alone runs into the thousands. Once you get beyond a certain size aircraft, they absolutely have to train on the job. Do you seriously think anyone would rack up a half million dollars in debt renting commercial airliners to become a professional pilot with a starting salary of $17-22k? Do you know that first year pilots are paid so little that they actually qualify for food-stamps? In many cases, the taxi-cab driver that takes you to the airport makes more than the pilot... ...and you'd blaming the get-rich quick mentality of the 'young people'? Do your research before you pontificate.

Trying to compare Military training and what goes on at Gulfstream is comical. The military spends upwards of a Million dollars per pilots on training. They also have a rigorous selection process to ensure that those that are selected will be able to handle the tough pace of training.

Gulfsteam seems to have but one requirement, that you bring money. They provide just enough training to get you out the door and the next chump in.

'Pilot Factory' –> hahaha!!!

According to this article we should also be afraid of the FAA who hires people off the street to become air traffic controllers and who learn on the job after only 3 months. Sorry, there's no other way around it.

Also, if the author would have the slightest idea about the airline industry, he would know that over 90% of pilots enter the airline industry 1 of 2 ways: Military flying experience OR regional airlines. You can't compare regional airline minimum qualifications with 'major' airlines. Pilots 'upgrade' from regional or military, hence they have more experience.
This is like comparing a CEO salary with that of a high school drop out. Apples vs. Oranges. Sorry, no merit behind this article.

Wasn't one of the pilots of the Comair crash a Gulfstream graduate? They took off on the wrong runway a couple years ago.

Has it occurred to anyone (particularly the author of this article) that the pilot academies don't make the policy? That would be the FAA...hello! The academies are providing a service, that simple. And if they're providing the training required by the FAA, then why isn't this article pointed at the FAA?

I flew for Gulfstream as a Captain back in the early '90s. No matter how appalled you are at this story, trust me - the reality is worse.

As a Captain, I came to the job with about 3,000 hours (if I remember right - it was a long time ago) and an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) rating. The FOs (first officers) generally had Commercial tickets with wet ink and around 300 hours max.

Gulfstream markets this program as a way for FOs to get experience, but what kind of experience do you think they get? My FOs loaded the bags and briefed the passengers. If they were good, they'd get to take the controls en route. They NEVER touched the controls during the critical taxi/takeoff/departure climb/approach descent/landing phases of flight because they just weren't safe. This is not a judgement of the people involved, but an assessment of their levels of experience and, therefore, skill and airmanship. Most were young, cocky, and dangerously over-confident. (Which most sub-5,000 hour pilots are, to be fair.)

One other thing to consider: if Gulfstream is cutting costs in training, what do you think they're doing to maintain their aircraft? I quit Gulfstream after about 6 months on the line because of thier horrible maintenance program. One time I was told to fly a load of passengers to Miami after the breaks had failed on the right side of the aircraft. I refused and got in trouble.

Another time, the horizontal stabilizer (the flat part in the tail) actually broke - the structures under the exterior skin that give it it's aerodymanic shape had failed after a pilot overstressed the aircraft while flying too close to a thunderstorm. My FO found the problem during the pre-flight inspection, so I called Operations told them that the aircraft was down and that I needed a replacement. They told me there were no other aircraft, and that I needed to take that one. I got on the crew bus, rode to Ops, turned my ID and quit. I later heard that the aircraft kept flying for 6 WEEKS before the tail folded itself in half during a takeoff run. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

Where was the FAA, you may ask? I called the Miami FSDO to report these problems - they weren't interested.

Chinese business practices meet US mainland. Sure, most people could fly a plane with minimal training, but for the .01% of occassions where non-routine things happen, I want a pilot with demonstarted experience whether it is flight simulator or real. These buy and fly resorts are scams: pure and simple.

I've been a commercial pilot for more that 30 years and fly freight for one of the largest overnight package companies.

Gulfstream is not even close to being the only commuter airline to have "pay to fly" first officers. Many of the commuter airlines have similar programs. The ones that don't still hire first officers with as low as 350 hours and pay them somewhere between $18,000 and $22,000 per year to start. Chances are that the next time you board a commuter flight you'll have a captain that is making somewhere between $30,000 to $90,000 per year and a first officer making between $18,000 to $30,000 per year. It's always been this way, you pay a small fortune for training to get a commercial license plus an instrument license and then try to make enough to stay alive (while paying off your training) while you build hours to fly for the "real airlines". Part of the problem now is that very soon there will be no "real airlines". It used to be that you'd build experience and hours with the commuters, while starving and camping out in a small apartment with three other similar pilots who were never around because they were out on trips (did I mention that the schedule is lousy too?). You'd spend all your free time sending out resumes to the "real airlines" where the pay scale was MUCH better, and topped out at about $230,000 per year for a senior captain with the majors. These days only FedEx and UPS, and maybe one or two others, have that pay scale. Most of them have been suffering pay cuts and layoffs, if not total shutdown. Now many people are spending their whole careers in the commuters, since the top pay has gotten better and the majors aren't hiring and increasingly look much like the commuters.

Much of the carping about "pay to fly" is that it further erodes an already tight job market and further depresses an already abysmal pay scale for commuter pilots. If I were a young pilot looking for a job and had the resources, such a program would look attractive and make economic sense, so I understand why people do it.

All this does NOT mean that it's necessarily unsafe, it depends on the airline and the program. Smaller airlines have always had lower time pilots and poor pay. No one that works for a living can afford to pay for all the time it takes to make a well trained and experienced captain

The bottom line is, that if you want to fly for the airlines, you'd better love flying, since the training is expensive, the starting pay very low and the employment prospects iffy at best.

I love flying boxes and I make a decent living doing it, but I starved and drove $200.00 beaters for years to get there.

I still love it!

Not much more than sensationalism. Yes, safety is paramount, but why didn't you talk to the FAA? They set the rules.

I love how some people do not know anything about the training process and automatically assume the worst. I worked for Gulfstream Airlines while I was going to school in Jacksonville at Delta Connections academy. I got to meet most of the pilots that had that run from tampa to jax and they were very knowledgable of their aircraft. The school I went to did the same thing except it was a 4 year program because we also were tied to Jax University. The flight times were about the same if you got hired on after being an instructor to get the minimum hours for the interview itself. If you look at any flight school there will be problems, not everyone is meant to pilot and yet they don't figure that out until someone gets hurt. I have been flying for 15 years now (and am only 26) have my ATP, CFI, MEI and am a copilot on a private jet. I dont have as many hours as the captians on airlines do but with the proper training you can easily avoid these situations that apparently these pilots got into. Its not the amount of time you have, its the experience you have...lets say you learn to fly but have to deal with engine problems and storms during some of your lessons...theres the experience. Lets say Joe Blow learns to fly but has no problems during his training...how is he going to react during an emergency since he has only practiced and never had a real one? So please do not go about thinking young pilots or low time pilots are unsafe..that would be assinine of you to do so. Most of the pilots trained are very safe at the flight schools around the country...but there are a few that cannot handle the stress when something happens in the air.

Please build a passenger rail system. I hate flying and looked for a train from Louisville KY to NYC on my last trip. The trip by rail would take 30 hours plus. I think it would be quicker on a bus. We need alternatives to flying and rail would seem to me the be the best.

in the military the training is everything, the pilots don't get anywhere near the planes without learning every little thing about it. on top of that training is everything for flying; period. On top of that the pilots in the Air Force only risk their lives. German schools, including the Lufthansa training school is very disciplined. You can send out people who don't know what their doing to learn but not when other people's lives are in your hands. that is just stupid to say the least

To the comment below from Ann,

Professional pilots ARE required to go for annual testing. The captain must attend a checkride every six months, and the first officer every 12 months. Theese checkrides/training events are very stringent and consist of multiple adverse emergency situations, and well as a check to make sure that the pilot is knowledgeable about the operations, systems, regulations, and emergency procedures of the particular aircraft that they are flying. Just so you know.

The two biggest shortcut takers in my flight school went to Gulfstream because they didn't want to pay their dues and instruct, learn, and come up the right way.

I have to make this known. I do not necessarily vouch for Gulfstream or the quality of their pilots, but what Im seeing a lot of here, are the "veteran pilots" coming in here and throwing a total fit over how "those upstarts could get into the cockpit with so few hours"

Whats wrong boys? ELITIST MUCH!?

Everyone thats been around flying, knows becoming a commercial pilot relies heavily on how much you can spend. Not everyone is born with money or a had the foresight to TRY and join the Airforce or Navy academies and get trained for free. Those thousands of hours is requirement by the big leagues because people with money to burn will rack up hours and hours and hours and then decide "hey Ill fly commercial" while people who would have made very good career pilots but couldnt afford 100,000$ in prepaid flight time (or had the GIFT of serving a military pilot) get the shaft.

This is the same delusion professional stock car drivers suffer. "Oh Im at the top of my sport because IM JUST THAT MUCH BETTER than everyone" No youre not, you had access , either through family or friends to get into a car at some point and you lucked into a ride and then when you GOT that ride, you didnt suck.

Personally I think we need to expand public funding for pilot training, it would be a very small investment for a huge payoff.

Get these spoiled elitist private pilots out of the mix.

And Patrick is correct on this subject. You will make a lot of us suffer for someones lack of responsibility if you just assume that no one from these schools can fly safely

Really? In today's deregulated industry, there's really no other option. You, the flying public, have made it this way. Without schools like Gulfstream, ATP, Delta Connection Academy, Regional Airline Academy, etc, etc, etc – you would have no pilots, and airlines would have to cover training expenses for pilots from start to finish, and it would be the end of commerical aviation in the US. You think the hours would be any different? No. Airlines would spend 6 months tops. You think these schools are any less than programs at Western Michigan, Embry Riddle, Spartan, etc? No. Just because those programs are masked with a university's name, they are still trained the same way at the same airports.

Very poor reporting, and very irrelevant information.

I'm just going to throw this out there....
You can throw it right back if you want....

Skydiving is amazing.
peroid.
try it.
right now?
yes.

anyway.
I believe that there should be a higher standard for Pilots, especially when there are so many lives that are at risk on say a commercial airline.
I do not think that 550 flight hours is enough to get anyone fully capable to manage and fly with the responsibility of other people's lives in their lap.

You get what you pay for folks.

The post about a "get rich quick" example is unfounded here. I have spent almost 20 years as a commercial pilot and flight instructor and I can attest that graduates of this program make less money a month than someone working at the mall. There in lies the problem with this industry. Flight Instructors and right seat co pilots are paid so little that you have to be nuts to follow this career. Not too mention the fickle nature of airlines and their employees. I chose to make my living in Technology, although I still yearn for the cockpit. I am not definding Gulfstream but I know as an instructor at an FAA approved school like Gulfstream that they are required to follow and adhere to very strict standards of training. Nothing is short cutted. These pilots are being trained as well as any program out there, I am certain of that and would fly with any of them. Human error will always exist when a human is in the seat.

I am a professional pilot with 20 years and over 9,000 hours of flight experience, I was formerly employed by a major US airline, and I am currently employed as a professional pilot for a major US aircraft operator.

The sad, brutal truth all have us have known since our earliest days in aviation is this; it often takes dead bodies for change to occur in our industry. Some years ago after fatigue was sited as a factor in an American Airlines crash in Little Rock AR, the FAA made a subtle change to the rest requirements for pilots. We in the industry saw it for what it was, window dressing. The FAA of course made it sound as though they were on top of the problem and this would fix it, but in truth they simply tweeked the existing rules in a way that might effect 5% of all operations. Now we hear of course from the FAA and the airlines how all the pilots met the industry standards. Really? A captain with 150 hours in type and a history of five (5) check ride failures??? I've never failed one, most of my friends haven't, or perhaps one at most. Frankly I've nver heard of anybody failing more than two. The First Officer apparantly said on the CVR that she'd never or rarely seen ice. WOW! I've got almost as much time flying in potential icing conditions as she had total flight time.

So why is this so? Two things really, first the FAA. The FAA has largely done a stellar job throughout it's history, however they have one glaring weakness; they are both the arbator of safety and the promoter of the industry. On one hand they make flying safe, on the other they help ensure the economic viability of the airlines. If they truely had done something more than window dressing after the Little Rock crash, the airlines would scream because they would have to hire 10-15% more pilots to cover and new realistic rest requirements. The FAA and NASA have reams of studies that tell them in unambigious terms pilots need more rest but they simply cannot or will not overcome the airlines objections (in the form of the ATA)

The second factor we have is the race to the bottom in the US. Our quest for ever cheaper products has forced an addiction to cheap imported goods. Since we can't outsource pilots to China or India, then we outsorce them to ever cheaper and cheaper operators. Sure they "meet the industry standards", but frankly the industry standards have traditionally been irrelivant. The FAA requires 1500 hours to be a Captain. I was hired as a first officer at my first airline job with 2700. There I went through DASH 8 (!) training at one of the finest regional airlines in the country, Allegheny Airlines. This was no pilot factory, or puppy mill as we call them. I was trained by pilots with 20 years just at that airline alone with 10 years flying Dash 8's. You see, once upon a time, not very long ago, the major airlines were served buy the best regionals, Allegheny, Henson, Mesaba, Air Wisconson, ASA, etc. Unfortunately each became too expensive in this modern world (largely because they paid pilots a decent wage), so airlines like Pinnacle, Mesa and Cogan exploded from little operators to major players for one reason and one reason alone, they were the cheapest. No longer do 50 year olds with 25 years experience teach the ropes to the new guys, now 27 year old captains teach 22 year olds straight from these pilot factories . That is not hyperbole, it is reality. Look in the cockpit of that Cogan flight at each crew member and tell me I'm wrong. Still don't think so? Google Pinnacle airline crash flight 3701, then search out the CVR, read it in it's entirety. Children flying with children, the weak flying with the inexperienced in planes far larger, faster and sophisticated than ever before (Some of these airlines are flying fly by wire 100 seat jets ) Cogan and Pinnacle are not alone in this, but please note that Pinnacle owns Cogan.

Allegheny airlines, now merged with Piedmont Airlines (formerly Henson) fly 100 and 300 model (37-50 seat) Dash 8's for US air. Under their contract if they flew the 400 model like Cogan, the Captains would make close to $100K year, the F/O's about $55K. At Cogan thew Captain made $55K and the F/O $25K. Piedmont is staffed by a senior cadre of Captains that average nearly 50 years old, each has flown the Dash Eight for 12+ years.

Knowing that, would you want to pay and extra $10 for your ticket???

A regional pilot averages about 400 hours per month on duty. If they were paid minimum wage for those hours they would make about $35K per year. An F/O at all these second rate regionals belongs on food stamps. It is time for the FAA to put up and the ATA to shut up. For God's sake please pay pilots at least the US minimum WAGE!. Until we do so, we will continue to get what we pay for. All we have to do to connect the dots is look at the Pinnacle crash, look at the Cogan crash, then look at the US Airways plane in the Hudson River. The contrast could not be more clear. Two perfectly good airplanes were crashed by the inexperienced, while one was saved by experience.

I am not suggesting that money is the only answer, but bear in mind a decent pay breeds stability and experience. In aviation there truely is no substitute for experience. I have flown with many young pilots, all perfectly competent, and very professional. However time teaches you one thing above all else in aviation, what can go wrong will go wrong sooner or later. You see, a young pilot may even fly the plane better than the old, but you see the old doesn't care about flying the plane. He/she cares about what might go wrong, what could go wrong. In fact this very relationship is enshrined in most emergencies training at most major airlines- the F/O flies the plane while the Captain manages the emergency. The following saying isn't just humorous, and it will always be true- there are bold pilots and old pilots, but no old bold pilots. Experience in the cockpit is as vital as fuel, wings and engines.

Annual job checks ARE a part of every commercial pilots life! In fact, every six months their job and license is "on the line" so to speak. Annually my spouse has to pass first a simulator test and, secondly, six months later (on an annual basis) he has to do a ground school again. (That is really a continuing education program as they are retrained at these ground schools for new developments on their aircraft. ) Then third, he is checked out each year to evaluate his health for flying. Those three things are necessary to fly. Then a FAA rep can do a "line check" at any time (surprise!) to check their procedures and flying abilities. Also they get random drug tests at any time. Plus their hours vary greatly each week or day. Sometimes they get in at 12pm and wake at 9 am. The next day they may get in at 7pm and wake at 4am. The schedule fluctuations are hard. Also the next time you see an hourly wage for a pilot remember that it is cockpit time only. They spend many hours per month in the airport and on the way to flights that are not compensated. A 75-80 flight hour month is average, but flight hours are the only hours that count in the pay cycle. The other 80-100 unpaid hours or more per month are travel hours, hours spent checking flight plans, time to wait on weather, waiting, etc. Pilots and the job they do are scutinized and reviewed very much. It takes a special skill set and temperment to be a pilot.

Dave,

Thanks for posting something of value!

It is unfortunate for the public that the media does such a terrible job of misinforming and distorting reality in regard to airlines and safety.

As a retired captain myself, I would encourage the public to read FAR part 61, 91, 135, 121 and educate themselves to the training requirements. Maybe they need to be changed, maybe not. I think the public and congress need to be more informed before doing anything.

While it is true that a 23 year old can join the airforce, and pilot an F-16 in less than 300 hours total time, safely, military flying is not comparable to civilian airlines. Military fighter pilots might only fly a few hours a week, while airline pilots or FO's can work legally up to 16 hours a day, six days a week thanks to the Rail Labor Act which is still in effect today even though trains are much different than airplanes.

I have personally flown with many different pilots, as a private pilot, flight instructor, commercial, and ATP Part 121 Captain and FO. From this experience, I have learned that there is a wide variety of personalities, experience, professionalism, competence and safety in the flight crews I have flown with. As an FO it was important for me to learn from the experienced and not so experienced Captains. As a Captain it was imperative to be a role model for the rest of the crew and set a good example and sometimes to correct mistakes or errors that any FO knows helps them be a better pilot.

That said, I have noticed a distinct change in the quality of pilots in the last 10 years, and through discussion with said pilots, have learned where they come from. Generally, I have found the most experienced and safe pilots come from programs that are 4 year programs, military pilots, and especially with those who worked their way up from private pilot – flight instructor – night freight pilot – mail pilot- airline pilot. In other words those who sacrificed the most to get there were generally the best of the best. The worst pilots I have flown with went through the 90 day or less than one year programs. They tended to be more immature, complainers, inexperienced and unprofessional, and thought they should be upgraded to captain even though they didn't merit the responsibility. Basically, it seemed like a bunch of young kids whose parents paid to buy them a commercial pilot license so that they can fly a plane. Not someone I desire to fly with.

Lastly, there are always exceptions. I have flown with some unsafe military pilots with bad attitudes, and I have flown with some of the best pilots in the world, who learned how to fly on a grass strip and worked flying a jump plane for skydivers to get enough hours to meet the minimums. Those who truly love to fly and it shows! Not just for themselves, but for their passengers as well! Sadly, there are fewer and fewer of the "best" pilots out there, and it will likely get worse, much worse, before it gets better.

Too bad the media, FAA, and government can't report anything accurately, except the NTSB accident reports!

Ann, All pilots are required to complete recurrent training annually. I believe airline pilots are required to complete recurrent training more than once a year...

In the early 1980's, Gem State Airways, a commuter airline based in Idaho, didn't pay their co-pilots. Gem State charged their co-pilots an hourly rate as they worked as a co-pilot, in exchange for the opportunity to gain commuter airline flight time and experience. At least the kids today are being paid for their work.

Travel and piloting airplanes has always been fun, exciting, and glamorous. Fun, exciting, and glamorous, often lures people who exhibit little discipline and risky behavior. Not what you want in an airline cockpit.

I was a military dependent for 23 years and have worked for the military for 4 years. There are comments comparing Gulfstream's training to military training. There is a major difference between the two. Everyday of a military pilot's training is flying. It's all they do. They eat, breathe, and live training. They are not students paying someone for and education and being thrust into a "program" for futher training. They have regulations and credentials that must be met before they are certified. If these are not met, they are removed from flight training. The military is not a school taking $30, 000 and trying to crank out a large volume of "success stories" to attract more business. Military pilots are not responible for dozens of lives while receiving hands on training.

There are a lot of underlying errors and the story can be misleading to the general public.

I am not arguing that stories like this should not be investigated but why cant CNN look into the accredited universities around the country that provide extensive four and five year degrees in professional flight training. Then the public can get a more balanced view on where some of America's pilots come from.

I served as a flight instructor at the United States Air Force Academy in the Intiial Flight Training program. The only requirement necessary for a cadet to pass on to UPT (undergraduate pilot training) was to pass a FAA private pilot program, which one reader above noted that a monkey could get one! It was a forgone conclusion that each cadet will pass and move on to more sophiticated and expensive training. Most of the officer staffing at the Academy only flew a few hundred hours a year and certainly no more qualified than a regional pilot with several hundred hours who flies 1000 hours per year.

I am a regional airline pilot and have flown with several ex-military pilots and can assure you that they are no more competent than those trained at civilian schools. I have fould military pilots to be unable to think "out side the box" when in a non standard situation. It seems the military training only teaches them to operate an aircraft in accordance with how they are taught/ordered. No independent thinking is allowed....

I am a private pilot with 25 years of experience myself. I have seen both outstanding airmanship and very poor airmanship come from so called "professional pilots". Flying is no different than any other task. Some people excel under stress and some are very poor performers under stress. Testing will not always determine who has the skill to handle in-flight problems until an emergency really happens. Todays aircraft are so reliable and so automated that most pilots never have a need for the skill level routinely required to fly in the post post WWII time period. Because of this reliability, todays pilots don't get weeded out like they used to.

I'm a former military pilot (UH-60's in the army) and I've had a Class A accident (roll-over). IMHO, the detail on this article isn't sufficient to judge the process at Gulfstream. 1) we don't know how many hours students have coming in, 2) they don't touch on their ground training experience, & 3) they don't mention washout and recycle rates. They mention 3 accidents, but how many students have gone through that program? 3 of 100 sucks. 3 of 10,000 isn't quite as bad. How many ER students have had crashes? How many military guys have dinged one up?
Pilots in the sweet spot for this kind of training are the most likely to have an accident anyway. They're around 750-1000 hours. Enough experience to be full of themselves, not enough to know better.
As for the uninformed, knee jerk responses from some of "geniuses" before me:
Embry Riddle is a fine program, but by no means the only way to be "qualified". That's small minded and demeaning to 99% of pilots who aren't "qualified" by ER.
How in the hell is this the government's fault? If the company is following FAR's, they're acting within the law. The government doesn't have anything to do with it except to act as cops.
Every commercial pilot has to pass ground and flight exams and a physical to be qualified to fly. I'm not sure of the time periods any more, but I think they're every 6 months.
And lastly, where do you expect commercial pilots to build commercial experience? I don't expect these people to be zero hour pilots coming in, so they should have a baseline. So their 300 hours is commercial hours. That should give them the 1000 – 1500 they would require for airlines.

Again, there are some definite holes in the story. Don't judge too early. Use that hatrack God gave you for something other than blocking my view at the movies.

Pity that more training is not required to become a journalist.

The Airforce and European carriers screen their candidates to the highest degree and are rewarded with pilots who have a very high aptitude for flying. These pilot factories will graduate anyone with enough money. Just look whats walking around the airports these days in pilot uniforms. Its scary.

Robert Frederick May 28th, 2009 11:58 am ET

I am a professional pilot with 20 years and over 9,000 hours of flight experience, I was formerly employed by a major US airline, and I am currently employed as a professional pilot for a major US aircraft operator.

Robert,

Thanks for a great post!

Well said brother!

This all boils down to money, of course. If the airlines turned a profit year over year, chances are, we would see better training programs and better pilots.

Either the U.S government needs to rid of the foreign ownership rule and allow foreign investment--VERY MUCH NEEDED-or regulate the industry again and establish fares that cover the cost of the operation.

If money is made year over year, people are happy, service improves, and pilot training programs improve as well.

FYI as to the "He compares it to going to a medical student for healthcare instead of a doctor": many patients visiting training hospitals are seen by medical students/residents overseen by a physician. Those students are keenly aware of the gravity of their decisions just as the pilot-in-training is. Articles like this drive me nuts because they're just playing on the fear of flying. You're still much safer with the young pilot up front than with an experienced automobile driver on the ground.

Well not a conseguence of cheap fares exactly, more of corporate greed. The executives could always pay themselves just a little bit less, but gosh that would'nt work now would it!

hmmm and some people do end up seeing medical students instead of doctors when they go to the hospital. it also happens to be under the supervision of residents and attendings who poke their heads in once in a while and sign off on things... how else do you think we get the experience?

It's funny to read some of the comments that act like "on the job" training" is some sort of dirty secret. OJT isn't just for folks working minimum-wage jobs, and not just for the non-risky jobs either.

The difference between a "medical student" screwing up and killing someone on the table is just slightly less than a "pilot in training" screwing up and killing a planeload of people. We typically expect a doctor to not kill 60 to 300 people in one mistake – yet we pay these pliots with multiple lives in their hands each and every day no more than a typical assistant manager of a fast food franchise – that's the real crime!

You'd honestly be shocked how many doctors you have seen in your life that were either medical students, interns, or just coming out of their residency – read some of the fine print on your "Consent for Care" forms. A doctor doesn't learn all their skills from books, or watching another doctor do it – they have to have hands' on training. That requires a patient, not some computer program or fake body to work on.

A pilot building up experience needs to fly – whether it's their ratings to get to the number of hours to be able to fly with an airline, or PIC hours.

Now, all that being said, if the FAA was better funded they'd be able to spot these kinds of place, and either shut them down or enforce the regulations – maybe even tighten them up. Where there's a will, there's a way to exploit the rules.

You are all looking at it from the wrong perspective. You need to accept the fact that if you place you life in someone else's hands, it is subject to their skills. The only way to change that is to become a pilot and fly yourself. The bonus is... You get there sooner. You won't have to wait in security lines. And you can come and go on your own schedule. Of course it may cost more. But what is your safety and convenience worth? Oh, that's right. Never mind.

this is what you get for cheap fairs...you brought it upon yourself

I think I'll walk next time. Thanks anyway.

I find the comparisons to medicine interesting. If you've ever been treated at a teaching hospital you can bet you have received treatment from a "student", whether its an actual med student, resident or intern. The point is you have to learn and the only way you will learn is by doing. Flying a twin engine Cessna for 2,000 or 10,000 hours does not qualify you to fly a 747. it's unrealistic to expect that new pilots can get all the training they need before they get in the right seat.

One shouldn't go from flight school to flying passengers period. There should be a graduated licensing process.... with a set number of years/hours flying cargo or military experience...before one is ever allowed to fly passengers.

Your story is misleading. The pilots are being trained within FAA regulations and are not Gulfstream co-pilots until they have the qualification, training and certifications to do so. If you want to compare it to the medical field, they are doing their pilot residency.

Also, air travel continues to be the safest way to travel and these accidents were not because of lack of training. I think it'll be determined the Buffalo accident was due to fatigue since the pilots were seen napping before the flight, had pulled an all-nighter to commute to their base, and were heard on the recorder talking about not feeling well. Also, all airline pilots have to go through re-current training in a similator every 6 months. I just don't think training is the issue here.

Pilots are grossly underpaid, despite what the general public thinks. Most newly hired airline pilots barely make $20,000 per year. This is another area of change that is needed. Gulfstream doesn't even pay a salary! The co-pilot has to pay $30,000 just to have a job. That's a problem!

This just feels like some sensationalized reporting. I almost want to stop reading and watching CNN because of stories like these. Now that I've had real life experience with a few reporters sensationalize reports and misinformation in them, I've become more and more weary of what I hear on the news. I'd like to think we could demand better reporting that what we receive these days. Everyday I just get more depressed with what people deem acceptable.

Don't be too high on Riddle's pilot training. I've had to "retrain" a lot of these guys when they come to me for work.

Agreed, we would all like an 'experienced crew' in the cockpit, but experience only comes from.. 'gaining experience', one has to start somewhere. A good pilot is always learning, even an "experienced" crew is still learning and gaining experience.

The medical analogy is actually a good one, but incorrectly interpreted in your story, the fact is that any ER has a portion of less experienced Doctors working along side experienced Doctors, the airline industry is no different.

One accident is too many and tragic, be it on the road, on the sea or in the air, and every effort to prevent accidents should be, but the fact is humans are fallable and make mistakes, even very 'experienced' ones

The Gulfstream record seems pretty good,

@Suzanne: "Potential pilots should go through Embry Riddle..." – Yeah, everyone has 40,000+ a year to spend at that place. By your logic, only kids born with GOLDEN spoons in their mouths are able to become pilots.

@Old School: "This is just another example of the deteriorating mindset of America." – This is just another example of a person who bases their entire world view on what they read on CNN and in newspapers.

@Charlie the Tease: Thank you, an intelligent response to the story. You are correct, the issue is not necessarily the number of hours, but the quality of training.

Don't expect Chuck Yeager pilots at these wages!!!!!!!

Plus, where do you think most pilots get their training and their experience before flying for the majors? The regionals are basic training grounds. You certainly won't find many military pilots at the regionals. So, like someone else said, you get what you pay for...

I equate this situation to being treated by a Medical Student at a hospital. You may or may not live through that experience....

“I really don’t want somebody in the right seat that’s just learning, that’s gaining experience, said Moore. “I want an experienced crew. When I buy an airplane ticket, that’s what I’m paying for.” He compares it to going to a medical student for healthcare instead of a doctor.

um...what does he think a medical intern or resident is?

I am a private pilot and comparing heart surgery to flying a plane is ridiculous.

In terms of getting rich quick, go ahead and ask any pilot in his first 5 years in the cockpit how rich he is...

you are missing the whole point

airline pilots are not pilots but robots taught old procedures

they do not know how to fly an AIRPLANE!

(1) THEY PULL OUT ONTO RUNWAYS TOO SHORT

THEY PULL UP TOO FAST AND TRY TO FLY Vx NO MATTER HOW BAD THE IDEA IS AERODYNAMICALLY

A REAL PILOT WOULD SCRAPE THE TOPS OF TREES TO STAY AIRBORNE
(2) THE HUDSON CRASH PILOT SULLY(?) WAS A REAL PILOT

HE KEPT UP AIRSPEED SO HE COULD CONTROL THE AIRPLANE AT SPLASHDOWN

Please don't even compare this "pilot factory" (I prefer to call them "pilot puppy mills–which I think is more accurate) with military training. (by the way this isn't the only 'pilot factory' that should be scrutinized–DCI Academy comes to mind.)

Let me set some facts straight:

1. To even be accepted to fly military jets, one must pass a series of academic. physical, and psycological tests–just to be considered–then you must COMPETE with other hghly qualified individuals who are also competing for the program. To be accepted by GIA all you have to due is basically show up as a warm body–oh yeah–and a checkbook.

2. Now, once approximately 20% of those applicants makes it to flight school you are now on the not seat for the next 2+ years–not 3-6 months. Those that earn their wings at the end of 2.5 years have been put through the ringer and many have "washed out" for various reasons (either academic, flying, or physical failures)–you see the huge difference–as I see it is that if you fail in military training–you "wash out"–3 failed checkrides–see ya, a physical problem develops–see ya. At GIA–if you fail–you are allowed to fail as long as your checks don't bounce.

3. Verifiable training–this is huge–in the military pilot logbooks are kept meticulously by a third party clerk–not by the pilot and not subject to "padding hours" or lying about qualifications. In other words the process is seamless–when a military pilot shows up for a job interview with a major airline–his/her flight time and qualifications are beyond reproach–you fail a checkride in the military, you can be sure that the airline will know about it–not so for the puppy mill pilots.

4. Once the military pilot earns his/her wings–they may have several hundred hours of flight time–they then spend an ADDITIONAL 6-8 months in follow on TRAINING squadrons further honing their skills–and then must pass a final rigorous ckeckride before they are released to a fleet squadron–don't pass the checkride–they let you keep your wings–but you will never see the inside of a military aircraft–you will be flying a desk for the remainder of your career.

5. Now the training CONTINUES–in the fighter community–you now see individuals with reletively low hours (400-600) handed the keys to a fighter (often still under the watchful eye of a section leader or an EXPERIENCED Navigator or RIO). But remember, you may be in charge of a mutimillion dollar jet–but if you screw up–you dont take 50-70 passengers with you.

6. Finally, this is not about better pilots (military or civilian)–I have seen my share of both good and bad in BOTH communities. The article is questioning GIA and their training methods–and those in this blog who are comparing a military pilot with several hundred hours with a pilot produced by these "puppy mills" are clueless.

The analogy shouldn't be "going to a medical student for healthcare instead of a doctor" but going to a doctor who has a medical student with them.

The number of hours of the co-pilot is clearly related to their experience level, but remember, there's a pilot with much more experience also in the cockpit to lead the show. The co-pilot may have the controls, but only under the supervision of the captain, and the rigorous chain of command that exists in aviation mandates that the captain can take control of the plane at any time they feel that the co-pilot isn't handling the situation optimally.

So the whole issue of the co-pilot is missing the boat, it's the captain's job to stay in control, and if they have a relatively junior first officer, then they have to supervise that much more closely.

Having been a 767 captain for over 5 years at a major U.S. airline, I can say without a doubt that some of the most marginal pilots I have flown with are Embry-Riddle graduates.

They have very compartmentalized logic which is a detriment in a cockpit. The Riddle system is very defined and protects the pilot from real world decision making.

This creates issues much later on. For example, we encountered a significant mountain wave, and my co-pilot, a Riddle grad (and new pilot at my company) correctly applied power but started to pull the nose up as the airspeed continued to bleed off. I took command of the aircraft and pushed the nose over. HIs first concern was not for our situation but for what ATC may think.

I told him to tell ATC we were unable to maintain altitude and ask for a block altitude.

He was dumbfounded and even acknowledged that he would not have done that.

Our aircraft was rapidly heading towards the danger zone, he was worried about ATC, not our aircraft.

This is the problem with experience through curriculum, not experience.

As for Continental, I have a friend who flies there who told me he transitioned form one aircraft to another after several years and he got 3 simulators and a check ride. He flies two models of the 767 and two models of the 757 and hasn't made a landing in the 757 in over 5 years but could fly it any day.

The simple fact is most airlines pay lip service to safety because the dollar rules. If it wasn't for the excellent skills of most of the pilots for these companies, there would be more accidents. We have been lucky. My company, one of the largest in the world, routinely skirts the regulations leaving pilots to fly 6, 8, or even 10 day trips with the absolute minimum amount of rest (sometimes days with 4, 5,6 or 6 hours of actual resting down time) while flip flopping between day and night.

Safety is far down their list of priorities. They may operate within the letter of the law but that is often far from safe.

It's just a matter of time until the economics of the industry cause another crash.

As long as the government allows airlines to fly that don't pay their employees enough to feed themselves and allow competition from airlines that do not have the ability to operate professionally and use pay for training pilots the system will continue to crash.

As long as passengers are willing to fly with the cheapest tickets no matter how dangerous the airline is, the trend will spiral downward. You get what you pay for.

In response to PDX Dave;

Interesting.

I reported quite a few aircraft deficiencies as well, broken parts, leaking fuel, non-functional emergency systems, etc.

I was usually pressured by Operations or Management to MEL everything or look the other way and go anyway with passengers on board.

I sent in quite a few NASA reports and finally sent a few reports to FAA FSDO, who quietly swept the incidents "under the rug" and sent me a letter that said the case was closed without further inspection.

I felt I owed my passengers a safe aircraft, a safe crew, and a safe flight. Company and FAA didn't agree.

I left........

Another Captain with 29 years of experience leaves the industry to kids with a year or two experience, and a company and FAA who only react when someone makes a flaming hole in the ground!

Of course they'll usually blame the pilots.....

you pay for what you get

looks like there are some knowledgable people commenting. Let's hear them instead of the "you get what you pay for " know nothings.

Charlie the Tease's and other commenters' comments above are totally off-base when they attempt to compare one or two years of such slapdash "training" to one or two years of Navy or Air Force pilots' training. No one who has any knowledge of the situation thinks they are in any way comparable. There is no substitute for the military's "full time, all the time" training of its pilots. If you don't believe that–test it: find a great pilot, then ask him who he would want flying a plane his family was on, if there were a problem with that airplane. I give you a 100% guarantee he would say a former military pilot. Period.

Listen up all you bandwagoneers...and for John, address the real issue. 1500 hours is a lot of flight time. 550 hours is also a lot of flight time. Focus and dedication to the craft are key ingredients to make great pilots. Great pilots are who should be transporting us. 1500 hours can certainly make for a great pilot, but not a guarantee. What some may not realize is that the best pilots are those who are continually learning to be better. That inlcudes the "Big Iron" Captain who looks down his or her nose at their First Officers who are learning right along with them. You are still learning aren't you Captains?

What worries me is the "bad" pilots that slip through the cracks with this type of training, I know private pilots that I won't fly with, it scares me that these same pilots could go through this program and be flying left seat in a relative short period of time.

As one who started pilot training through commerical schools, and then joined the Air Force as a pilot, I shudder to think about the differences in the quality of training between the two. Fully trained with significant experience, should be the minimum for flying heavies commerically.
Managing the cockpit in an emergency can be a handful with two experienced pilots. If one of those piolts is acting as pilot AND INSTRUCTOR, then the airline is setting up the crew , and passengers for failure.

I will not fly Gulfstream

As a former CFI having gone through an accredited collegiate aviation program and now currently a U.S. Air Force pilot, I can tell all of you out there that there is no comparison to civilian flight training and military. Yes, we receive our wings after just one year of training, however, most of those days are 12 hours of training as well as numerous hours spent studying at night. The standards are much more strict, and the training is much more intense which produces a better product in the end. We train on emergency procedures every day. The fact that anyone can defend a program that puts someone in the right seat after three months of training is mind-boggling to me.

I saw this "kid" sitting in the first row on my flight last week. I thought he was about 18 or 19 years old. I thought it was "cute" because he had those silver "wings" that kids pin to their shirts. The cabin door was closed, he went into the cockpit, closed the cabin door, then the plane taxied and took off! I think the "kid" had something to do with that!

Potential pilots should recieve the best training that they can, and the enviroment that surrounds it. You can't blame Capt. Renslow for not having actually stick shaker training as Colgan doesn't didn't a see need for it as approved by the FAA. Talking about adverse flight conditions and how to react with no simulator training to back the knowledge gained sounded like a flaw that the FAA will soon have to amend.

Our industry doesn't allow for young civilans pilot to be successful, and that's where GulfStream Academy briefly opens the door. Young pilots can spend up to 100,000 dollars on their training only to start out sometime in the near future making 18,000 dollars a year whenever a regional starts to hire. Something has to change in our benefit.

I think that the whole industry has to change, and I have been lucky as my flight school STARBRIGHT AVIATION has provided me primarily multi engine training and taken all around the country to train and gain experience for about 20,000 dollars cheaper than most flight schools. My road so far has been okay, but with the economy only time will tell how long us young pilots have to suffer.

Gulfstream Academy allows for some 121 experience, but if the pilot has weak skills coming into the program they only endanger themslves and others. I do believe that if pilots are given the right amount instruction in training for their licenses that they have skills to be successful airline pilots. However, most don't recieve proper training and experience as their instructors only care about the hours to get hired, and not the quality of training they are providing. This has not been the case for me at STARBRIGHT AVIATION as my instructors are career instructors. Anyways, as explained the industry needs to change, and Gulfstream doesn't help our cause!!!

Nathan

I am myself an airline pilot and I have seen too many young pilots (early 20s) with no experience transition to regional jets and turbo props. This practice needs to stop and certain requirements need to be put in place.

Certain 'pilot factories' (ATP and Gulfstream) need to be shutdown. You cannot train properly a pilot in 90 days. This is impossible. Pilots going through this program do not have the adequate experience nor the the ability to make proper decisions in a dynamic environment.

Finally, it should be mandatory for all commercial pilots to undergo an aerobatic course. I have flown with so many pilots who have never even flown inverted (First Officers and Captains alike)! How can you recover from a dangerous flying attitude if you have never been there in the first place?

This story is a pure hack piece. I'm not defending this school but the objectivity of this story leaves a lot to be desired. I have had a career in naval aviation and built hours is not the true test of a pilot. I know plenty of F-14 pilots that I would never fly aboard their craft. And as far as the comment about going to the doctor and getting a medical student. What do you think an intern is? Guess who sees you the vast majority of the time at a hospital. An intern! They're still in training, aren't they?

anybody interested in training as a pilot should look into Middle Georgia College's aviation program. Well respected, widely recognized and a gold mine right here in Georgia. Maybe CNN could report on that.....where and how to train, not just how not to.

Ryan,

There are several key differences between a collegiate aviation program and a get rich quick pilot mill such as ATP, Gulfstream, etc. Don't even drag ERAU, Western Mich, UND, or any of the other reputable collegiate aviation programs into that mix. Schools with collegiate aviation programs have in depth classes teaching students the systems of the aircraft they are flying, the aerodynamics of the aircraft they are flying, and to top it all off with qualified professors that for the most part used to be in the airline or aviation industry. For example, one of the Aerodynamics professors a Embry-Riddle was a Top Gun Graduate and had a highly decorated career in the US Navy. There are countless of other faculty members at these universities that have this experience. Also, (Except for a select group of individuals who are drinking really good Kool-aid) graduates from these collegiate aviation programs are not expecting to get hired instantly.... Now I'm not going to lie, many do; however, most expect to have to pay their dues instructing and building time to become an experienced pilot before getting hired on to the Regionals. The difference between pilot mills and a collegiate aviation program is the fact that you're being taught by retired industry professionals that are passing on their knowledge to you rather than just solely one flight instructor that might have had his CFI rating for a month before getting you as a student.

Yes, some international carriers take raw students and put them through a series of interviews and numerous batteries of tests. After these screenings the new pilot candidate goes through their rigorous pilot training and finally places them in a very structured continued learning environment.

The same holds true with a military trained pilot. There are no "fluff" rides, scrutiny starts with ride one and temperament and judgement are part of the military environment.

Compare that to a "pay to play" civilian pilot mill. Pay your money and buy a seat.

Through the late '70s, the major airlines had a military pool to draw from. Unfortunately this is no longer true. Now the new hires comes from a pool of those willing to buy their ratings and work for slave wage for a shot at the airlines. Quality control is lacking.

The $9 fares and the darlings of deregulation are also responsible. You do get what you pay for and Gulfstream is what you get.

This is a disaster waiting to happen again. Another example of no REAL oversight from the FAA. Everyone wants fast and cheap, and this is what you will get. The only problem with this is that people get killed!

I am a pilot. I have flown for the airlines, and private charter jets, I spent years as a flight instructor. I did my training in Fl, not gulfstream, but at a much better institution.

I have no issue with the training that guflstream provides, I DO have an issue with them taking those pilots and putting them on revenue flights however. The author of this column is right, that you should expect a higher caliber of flight crew on the flight deck of an airplane, however when you are only willing to pay 15.00 an hour or less for pilots.. you get what you pay for.

There are pilots lined up out the door willing to work for almost nothing or in fact, work for free just to get experience, and there needs to be better safeguards in place and MUCH higher pay scale for pilots and the experience involved, but until people are willing to pay more than 100 for a ticket on an airplane, that is not going to happen.

As far as im concerned the flying public is just as much to blame as the operators of these airlines. As far as 1500 hours to get on with an airline, that is not correct. Most commuters will hire between 750 and 1000 hours which is fine. 300 hours is too low in my opinion.

Again, next time you get on a commuter airplane, the pilot in the right seat is lucky if he/she is making 20k a year, and the guy/gal in the left seat is lucky to make 50-60k per year. Perhaps the cost of tickets need to go up and the flight crew should be properly compensated for the job that they have entrusted to them.

I like how Continental says “We expect our partners to adhere to the highest safety standards.” No you don't, not when the co-pilot was paid $16,000 and could not even afford to live alone. That's less than I made at Radio Shack.

Ok, you all miss the real point of this. The public wants to fly. In order to fly, airlines need pilots. Getting time in the seat and getting licenses is expensive and time consuming. How many quality pilots has this program produced? Thousands, I'm sure.

There will never be any zero defect industry or service, EVER! Even with Gulfstream graduates flying on commercial airlines is millions of times safer than driving on our interstates, where millions of retards, many who can't speak our language are given licenses. Just so they can go out and get drunk and kill other people's families.

Flying is dangerous, and everyone out there should be thankful that there are guys like Sully out there. I'm pretty sure that guys like him are the rule, not the exception.

Stop freaking out and letting the media control your lives!

Its like all other skilled trades this is more about companies not offering training programs for their employees because they dont want to spend the money, but they will only hire people with experience.
Somewhere somebody has to be trained and somebody has to do the training. I would probable bet that that Lufthansa has a better employee retention as well becasue of their training.
As for the pilots who have been doing this for many years and dont want an inexperienced co-pilot well what do you do to help that new guy out, probably nothing but complain.about him.

ahhhh....

here you have it: the Mcdonalization of the airline industry...where the only requirement to become an airline pilot is to have a heartbeat...

I really enjoyed reading all the windbag comments from non pilots. Now go get a clue. We should go back to Part 61 training and bring the minimums back up. Going to work for American eagle after 500 hrs. is not right. There should be a minimum of at least 1000 hrs. with 500 being in a twin.
Now try and see things through a students eyes. A cessna 172 is $130 to $150 per hour. A twin engine is closer to $200/hr. Now tack on an instructor at $40/ hr. and maybe a $5 fuel surcharge(these days). Do the math. You could become a doctor or lawyer for that kind of money. Get mad at airline pilot hiring practices not the aspiring pilot.

"I really don’t want somebody in the right seat that’s just learning, that’s gaining experience, said Moore. “I want an experienced crew. When I buy an airplane ticket, that’s what I’m paying for.” He compares it to going to a medical student for healthcare instead of a doctor."

What do you think a teaching hospital is for?

US airlines having enjoyed the indirect subsidy of a seemingly endless generations of experienced military trained pilots need to step up to the plate and take this on as foreign carriers have for decades. If they won't the government must require it. Money considerations will always trump safety sooner or later in an unregulated situation. If plane fares go up they go up..

This is ridiculous. BTW, to the person that said the Air Force does this all the ime: yeah, they do...on single seat aircraft. Guess how many people die when those crash? Usually none..maybe one. There is a huge difference when talking about commercial airlines like this one. Plus, I'll take 300 hours of military training over 1,000 of commercial training any day.

The most amazing thing here is to see how people who knows _absolutely_ _nothing_ about pilots training are rushing to jump into conclusions, and start kicking and screaming about their safety being compromised for a profit...
For those who are saying that military pilots are better. With all due respect to USAF and its veterans like Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, pilots with military background not necessarily is a best choice for a commercial airlines. Good combat aviator is a risk-taker, and that's the last thing a commercial airline needs.

This has been coming (and stewing) for many years. Nearly forty years ago, I listened as a WWII flight instructor berated a pilot wannabe, coming with an FAA commercial license from some 'flight school' in Florida, generating ninety-day wonders. "Where'd you get that *&&^$%$ license? Out of a corn flakes box?" This after the instructor had flown with the guy and judged him totally incompetent. From some 16,000 hours flight experience, I can tell you: there's NO way a flight officer candidate, or any other pilot, can be totally competent (enough) to many flight emergencies in a heavy, complex aircraft. And, by the way, there's a hell of a difference in both the curriculum, attitudes involved, performance requirements, and the intensity of one year of military flight training ... and ninety days in a civilian 'vacation' flight school.
An old eagle ...

This is ridiculous. I thought CNN was better than this.

Sums up being a pilot in America perfectly.

Simply an attendance course nowadays – nothing more.

I think I will try driving the next time I need or have to travel. Besides, my last flight I took was very scarey. I have flown a few times in the last 5 years, but lately the flights have gotten worse. What happened to the smooth flights? Who knows. Rental car here I come.

Suggest the safety record of other training programs including the military be compared to the record of this company. How does it rack and stack based of accident statistics? This may provide a more realistic picture of what is actually happening.

You cannot compare this training to military training. In the military, if you can't hack it you are washed out. In the civilian world, they'll train you as long as it takes if you can pay for it. The Colgan captain was obviously one of these guys, he failed 3 of his initial certificate checkrides. That shows a systemic problem with his airmanship. I've never hooked a checkride, and neither have most pilots.

Yeah, but fighter pilots aren't shuttling around civilians. And number of hours, translates to experience. If I'm flying on an airliner, I'm paying for an experienced, competent crew to get me safely to my destination. I fully believe after two years, some young gun fighter pilot is ready for military battle. But I don't believe that same pilot would have pulled-off the Hudson River landing that rocked the news a few months back.

People need to realize the reason why regional airlines employ low-time pilots. The fact of the matter is that in the last decade, airlines have cut costs everywhere they can. I.E. charging you for soda and water now. Guess what folks? That started with the guys in the cockpit. Pilots have been suffering pay cuts for 15 years non-stop. It's no wonder the regional cockpits are filled with young low-time pilots.
Because, and speaking from experience, the average starting salary for a regional airline pilot is less than one can make working the drive-thru window at a fast food chain, or mopping floors in a prison. AFTER having shelled out thousands of their own dollars to get the training. That is a FACT. If you want to point fingers, don't point them at the pilots, point them at everyone else responsible. YOURSELVES. because it's OK for you to have cheap plane tickets, but the regionals can't even keep their cockpits filled because they can't pay enough. You can't have it all people, either let the airlines pay pilots what they deserve, or get comfortable with being in an accident. Better yet, think about professional athletes who get paid millions of dollars a year, and complain about it, to play a game for a few months of the year. But you'll shell out hundreds into their bank account to go watch the spectacle. Meanwhile, a guy whose only responsibility is to operate a vehicle weighing thousands of pounds traveling hundreds of miles per hour while defying gravity earns less than a McJob. Check your own priority structures, because its your fault.

Get on ANY commuter plane and you're getting a pilot with low flight hours. It's not just one airline, it's the whole industry. And guess what, next time you're in a hospital, that resident that's looking you over in the ER as you agonize over whatever is ailing you – holds a medical degree, but is grossly overworked, underpaid, has the least amount of experience (or flight hours in "pilot-ese") and will still make the first call on what do you to you... just like these pilots that are being referred to.

Reggie from LA-

550 hours is not a lot of flight time.

I have fould military pilots to be unable to think “out side the box” when in a non standard situation –

Ha, Captain Sullenberger was a military pilot. And I guess you're right, he really didn't think out of the box, and the results didn't turn out so well either.

Most asian countries send their pilot students here to the U.S., then they put them in the cockpit of a large aircraft as First Officer with 300 to 500 hours of total flight time! I have flown international and after speaking with pilots of different countries I have found that pilots in the U.S. are far better trained and have higher requirements than most of the world.

I absolutely love all these cheap airfare comments and the get used to it comments. I don't know about you but, I have not been so lucky to have received a "Cheap Fare" to get used to. Maybe the airlines need to curb their profit greed and let the chips fall attitude. I will take a Military Fighter Pilot any day before a civilian. First of all they are all degreed from good universities and fly the latest and greatest. Their training is geared toward saving lives and survival at all costs. I just can't believe the USA is supposed to be the most advanced in the world and yet we perform so poorly, I wonder what is the reasoning to this fact????? I am getting the feeling its the same as the Medical Industry, MONEY TALKS AND BS WALKS. The latest and greatest in Medicine but we are rated 36th in the world for care, how pathetic!!!!
If I were a Civilian Airline Pilot I would be both scared and embarrassed!!!!

These crashes aren't about the pilots. They're about flying turboprop aircraft in the northern United States between the months of November and March. Both crashes occurring in the last year have been the result of severe icing and wind-shear, which traditional jet airliners can power through. Regional turboprop flights are automatically cancelled when the summer storm season hits because they can't handle the high winds. Why is it then that the same high-wind conditions independent of storms (but accompanied by icing) don't warrant the cancellation of these northern regional flights?

Anyone who flies, let alone boards one of these turboprop regional flights in Winter is an idiot, regardless of training. The aircraft simply don't have the power to stay in the air under severe weather conditions.

This article should be about the FAA's failure to properly regulate seasonal air traffic, not about some obscure "pilot farm" in Florida.

This is what happens when people expect to fly anwhere, round trip, for 100 bucks. People think it's some kind of right to fly around. Bull. It's a priveledge. And it should be far more expensive. As long as idiot consumers want to fly for free, they'll have poorly qualified pilots who make 19k per year.

I agree with some of the other posts that the quality of training is more important than simply its duration. The article's author used the analogy of being treated by a medical student rather than a physician. He also mentioned that linking the pilot training program with paying customers is a suspect practice. I am a surgeon and would like to provide some medical perspective to the author's comments. During surgical residency training, it is common, accepted practice throughout the US for resident surgeons (ie, surgeons in training) to operate on paying patients and for the hospital institutions to bill insurance companies and patients for those services. This practice occurs at even the most prestigious medical institutions where there are physicians in training and it is not limited to surgical procedures. There is usually a more senior resident or an attending staff surgeon (similar to an aircraft's captain) present to assist and supervise the operation, ensure the patient's safety, and aid with the resident surgeon's educational experience. The potential is probably greater for the occurrence of an adverse event (including death) during surgery than during a flight. One big difference is that more people will be impacted with a cabin full of passengers than a single patient on the operating table in case of a catastrophic accident. Another big difference is that most patients going to teaching hospitals for care realize that at least some of their care will be delivered by doctors in training. Most air travelers are unaware that a pilot in training may be at the controls of their aircraft. So, perhaps disclosure about a flight crews' experience might help the flying public make an informed decision as to which flight to take.

I would like to point out that Militairy pilots are not always a great fit to fly in a airliner; it just doesn't take only stick and rudder skills, but often fighterpilots learned to fly alone and not as a team. It takes two to tango in that (often) small closet upfront called the flightdeck.

I have seen many fighterjocks come through the airliner training with great difficulty, because of their people skills.

Many of our pilots come from flightschools across the country and beyond, and as pointed out before, it takes a person that keeps learning to do this job. Not knowing what the training regiment is at GA, but I suspect its like a part 141 school which I went through almost 20 years ago.

It is irresponsible to single out Gulfstream Training Academy without making a quantitative comparison to accident rates among pilots from other schools. Gulfstream Training pilots have had accidents, but so have pilots from other schools. Maybe Gulfstream Training has a noticeable number of accidents simply because it puts out more students, not because they are more poorly trained and have higher accident rates.

This report makes me sick. 3 accidents in the last 6 years? how many accidents total have there been?

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) sets the standards and the rules that must be followed. They are the ones responsible for aviation safety. However their hands are tied because of the lack of funding, political arm twisting and irresponsible flight examiners. Be careful who you fly if you're in the back seat.

Back in 1997 I flew a beech 1900 from La Guardia to Portland Maine after being stuck at LGA for a day and a half due to high winds and storms. On boarding the aircraft two young pilots sat up front and their flying was not impressive. You could tell they were inexperinced in windy conditions. It is a major airline that I'd rather not mention, but the pilots had to be no older than 22. Needless to say since kissing the ground on arrival at Portland Maine like the pope use too. I avoid flying small commuter flights since then.

Chris needs to get his facts straight, and obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. I flew for an airline in the great lakes region, flying twin engine turboprops, in the winter. Yes we see ice, and a fair amount of it. We see high surface winds. The airline not only has been very efficient with their t-prop service, but has NEVER had a fatal accident in one of those aircraft and has been in business over 50 years, operating turboprops for nearly all of it.

To "Old School" – If you think pilots are trying to get these jobs as part of a "get rich quick" scheme....do a little research and think again. A starting First Officer at American Eagle Airlines makes $22,000 a year. $22,000!!!! In some parts of the country, that's BELOW the poverty line. Pilots don't start flying commercially for the money. They do it for the love of flying and being up there.

Next time you fly on a carrier such as Colgan, American Eagle, or TransStates (United Express) – take a look at the guy sitting in the right seat in the cockpit. That guy is probably making 1/2 or more LESS than you are, and yet has more responsibility than you'll EVER have. He has to get 100 people safely to their destination, and God forbid he hit the landing a little hard and hear all the complaints. Get over yourself, and thank a pilot someday for even making it possible for you to get from NY to LA in 5 hours vs. 5 days.

Howard, I disagree somewhat. First, military trainees are not being hired by civillians to get them safely from point A to B. Second, a certificate alone does not mean you are ready to copilot a pax aircraft. That's why the reputable companies have a minimum experience requirement as well as many other qualification requirements. Remember, these students can very quickly become PICs at any time and that would be a little frightning. Bottom line, just because some piece of paper says its legal, that doesn't mean you have the judgment and ability to take care of a hairy situation.

I flew on Gulfstream twice this week, they are a great little airline. I have flown them for over 15 years all around Florida. Never had a safety problem. I am getting on a Southwest flight today and feel just as safe as getting on Gulfstream yesterday

So four pilots out of 1700 plus graduates make this a bad school? Wonder how many planes have been crashed by pilots who haven't gone to this school.

I think what is demonstrated here is that (and I like CNN's reporting) this article is taken totally out of context and the result will not only be alarming to individuals who read this, but also result in a less than favorable opinion of Continental.

What a number of professional pilots have pointed out below is that this article is taken out of context and that the Gulfstream Academy as well as others does actually require pilots to have a commercial license before .. from the Gulfstream website:

COURSE REQUIREMENTS
First Officer candidates must be 18 years of age, hold FAA Commercial and Instrument certificates with a Multi-engine rating, a valid passport, and a first class medical certificate. The candidate will be required to demonstrate pilot proficiency and aeronautical knowledge via a simulator evaluation and written examination.

I honestly think this is pretty iresponsible reporting

".....Most major airlines require co-pilots to have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flight time"

Totally false. 1,500 hours is a regulatory minimum to meet one of several eligibility requirements to hold an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate (ATP).

I don't know of any major U.S. airline that would look at a new hire pilot with less than 5,000 hours.....

The fact these pilots are operating in revenue service with a few hundred hours is appalling...

Fighter pilots should not be compared here. They are highly trained in the highly specialized arenas in which they fly. If they will someday fly commercial airliners they require a large amount of additional training in type aircraft, civil aviation protocols, domestic airspace education, airport procedures, etc. You want the most highly trained, disciplined, conciencious, teamwork oriented, professional you can get – not cut-rate McPilots...

Gulfstream is the University of Phoenix of flight training!

Pilots are human, humans make mistakes. There are no quarantees in life. Accidents happen, we do what we can to prevent them from happening, however, they still happen. No, I dont want to fly on a plane with a poorly trained pilot, but the only real quarantee of that unfortunately is to NOT FLY.

Those of you comparing calendar time flying against seat time flying need to hold up for a minute. The two have nothing to do with one another. You can say you've been flying for 5 years if you got your license 5 years ago, but that tells me nothing about how much time you've actually spent at the controls. If you spend 3 hours a day. 5 days a week actually flying/training in a plane, you'll have to do that for 2 years to get 1500 hours flight time. Six hours a day would only take 1 year, 1 hour would take 6 years. Calendar time spent training is a useless factor to consider. Only actual flight hours and quality of ground AND air training count. Period. So those of you saying, "oh, becoming a co-pilot through Gulfstream that quick is no big deal, cuz my brother did it that quick in the military", you have no idea what you're talking about. I can assure you that one year in military flight school is far higher quality, far more intensive, and - let's face it - is starting out with a higher quality student overall. At Gulfstream, anyone with a big enough checkbook can get in.

Karaya, from yankeesville N.H. Guy, you are totally incorrect with your post. The best cilvilian Airline Pilots flying today ARE EX-MILITARY FLYBOYS PERIOD!!!! You need to know what your jaws are saying before you put your foot in your uneducated mouth!!! And one more point, the Airlines are always looking for a way to cut services and up the profit margin at our expense and safety so that they can give their CEOs that extra 3 million in his bonus package!!!!!

Has Gulfstream ever had a fatal crash? related to pilot error? If not, it seems like the Academy is doing its job (training pilots on the BE1900D). The question should be what is happening to pilots once they leave Gulfstream?

I was told by a pilot that had left there that they spent days in the classroom reviewing aircraft systems during training, while at his current airline the similar course was home study. This sounds like an industry problem to me. Scapegoating is cheap.

Print a story on industry wide regional airline training. That might be more credible with more than one source/ airline. Less than a year ago American Eagle hiring standards had been 350 flying hours (per their website) TOTAL TIME! Compare that to your 1500 hrs. listed.

I guess I will rely even more on land transportation after reading this story. What is really good is that I just got a new GPS and it has maps for Europe.

Now I can drive to Europe...who needs a plane!

*yawn*...what, is this what we're all supposed to be scared of now? Whatever. Next.

If you really have a problem with this, contact Continental.

Gulfstream International Airlines just got crossed of my air travel list!

The Gulfstream applicant needs a commercial license with 300 hours pilot in command (PIC) minimum for entry to the program. Typically that would mean 350 to 400 hours flying time and possibly another 100 hours if the studnet had night, multiengine, and IFR endorsements.

After that he/she gains an additional 250 hours of Gulfstream training before graduating. That is a lot of flying! Assuming 300 mph (low) you will soon realize that the student has flown 75,000 miles as a second officer on the program. And that is under the watchful eye of the First Officer.

Don't smear a good institution (I'm not one of their students) or low time pilots because of unfortunate accidents or the unprofessional actions of a few. I'm a private pilot with several hundred hours PIC and several thousand hours of passenger flying on commercial airlines. I always feel safe and comfortable on my commercial flights in the knowledge of the training this pilots receive.

This is just another case of a "pilot mill" or "pilot factory" pushing through people. Being a flight instructor and slowing working my way through hours I have gained more experience than most that go through in their training at gulfstream. A pilot with three hundred hours doesnt have the control of a small airplane needed to safely get out of most situations let alone being in a twin jet. All they are getting taught is how to babysit the autopilot. They are not getting any real world experience.

Any icing conditions in florida and the bahamas? Any snow covered runways? Any mountain flying? Nope or rare answers these questions. All of these factors will be encountered by airline pilots.

Seriously, flip through any AOPA magazine and you'll see flight schools advertised all over the country with the same training opportunities.

This article singles out one training organization when there are hundreds in North America.

Allen and Laura should spend a little more time researching flight training before singling out entities for what is industry standard.

It is not the training that is the issue – it is the maturity level of the pilots. As a private pilot, I am in awe every time I fly. Safety and good airmanship is my main concern. Those two pilots who flew the plane to 41,000 ft and stalled out – they were just immature. You just don't do that. I'm concerned today's kids just really don't get it. Flying a plane is not like playing a video game. You have to be professional in your attitude from start to finish – or you die.

Now this is a scary quote:

"Gulfstream Academy defends its program, telling CNN, “Gulfstream does an outstanding job training commercial pilots, and it has done so for nearly two decades and thousands of pilots in an FAA-approved program. Every U.S. commercial carrier has pilots who’ve received their training here.” Indeed, the Academy says over 1700 pilots trained at Gulfstream found work with commercial airlines."

1700 pilots? Gulp!

This also my me wonder; Who trained the 911 terrorists? I'm not saying this particular facilty/school; however, seems like in 3 months one learns enough to be dangerous or ill equipped. Seems all too easy to sign up and get the crude knowledge of the basic principals of flight training...

Did I miss something? I read the odds of dying on any single comercial flight are 52.6 million to 1. We as a country already spend WAAAAAY too much money on airport security compared to what we spend on subway, bus and train security even though the same amount of lives are "in danger"

If you are concerned about your safety while traveling, then contact your congressman about training for an individual to get their DRIVERS LICENSE. These teenagers, old folks, and maniacs are a bigger risk to your life than the pilots referenced in this article.

Howard Wrote: "the US Air Force does the same thing and those pilots are flying single engine fighters…"

Howard, I have to take issue here. An Air Force pilot undergoes a series of intensive training programs that, all totalled, will last 1.5 years or more before they will be even begin their actual mission qualification–not 3 months like this pilot farm. Even after these 300 plus hours of training, an Air Force pilot will be under close supervision with limited responsibilities for around two years–not ferrying civilian passengers as will graduates of this Florida program.

Furthermore, the Air Force "washes out" 1/4 to 1/3 of a given pilot training class for various reasons. I wonder how many marginal candidates this for-profit pilot farm washes out? As the commitment for Air Force pilots is currently ten years, most pilots leaving the Air Force to fly commercially will have in excess of 2500 hours–most of that command experience–before winding up as a co-pilot in the commercial airlines.

So, no: The Air Force does not 'do the same thing.'

I started flying at age 18. Had my private license by 19, commercial by 21. Then I went into the Air Force and attended USAF undergraduate pilot training at Vance AFB OK and then KC-135 training and flew KC-135 air refueling tankers for seven years and then flew corporate jets for 20 years. I have an Airline Transport Pilot license, over 11,000 hours of flying time and have type ratings in seven different air transport category jet aircraft (from Lear Jets up to Boeing 707) and have tried to get on with the airlines for years and was never qualified. How do people with as little as 600 hours of flying time whose training was so minimal, obtain jobs flying passengers around?

Well if you can elect a president who hasnt even been a senator thru an entire term to PILOT a country you can get a pilot with no experieince to fly a plane. It should be fine right? Except once is responsible for millions of lives and the other for 40 or 50. No big deal right?

- Robert Frederick May 28th, 2009 11:58 am ET
"I am a professional pilot with 20 years and over 9,000 hours of flight experience, I was formerly employed by a major US airline, and I am currently employed as a professional pilot for a major US aircraft operator."

Robert, thank you for your post! You got to the bottom of this.

Annual checkrides are FAA required for all pilots. You are accusing Gulfstream Intl. of also having poor standards during those checkrides. The Captain is in charge of all aspects of flight. They are required to have an Airline Transport Pilots license which requires 1,500 flight hours to qualify. There is an experience level on the flight deck at all times. For all those graduates who flowed to major airlines you are also accusing those companies of having low standards. My initial training experience with a major was very demanding as I am sure they all are. It's easy to cull weak pilots during their probationary year. Just to put things in perspective when a pilot learns to fly a different jet at their airline they get ground school and simulator time. After they pass their checkride their first flight in that jet is with paying passengers under the watchful eye of a check airman. This is all FAA approved. Either all the airline companies are in collusion and agree to compromise safety or the CNN reporters failed to bring out "The Rest of the Story."

Howard is right. You have 20 something year olds in the air force flying planes in and out of harms way. You have many airlines with cadet pilot training program (including Qantas, one of the safest) where they start flying after a short while.

The key is the training not the time.

Also the captain that said you don't want to be treated by medical student rather than doctor miss an important point. Hospital depends on residents. Who while fully qualified MDs are still in their training phase as well under the supervision of more experienced doctors.

Here in Boston most of our hospitals are also training hospitals On many occasions a patient may see a medical student first before the doctor. There are good and bad every profession. I used to have a lot of contact with lawyers, There are probably more bad lawyers than bad pilots.

Low time is not the issue here, anyone can be taught to fly an airplane in 500 hours, it's the years of experience that make a good pilot a great pilot.

To Scott who thinks that military pilots are better than GA pilots, that is a myth; I know many military pilots and they are all great pilots, not everybody gets their ticket at the public's expense, some of us have to do it the hard way.........renting or buying a plane and paying an instructor. Your private license can cost upwards of 10K! By the time you ever get the hours and the ratings needed to get to the airlines, you will probably have spent nearly 100K.

To Ann who obviously has no clue as to what airline pilots have to go thru annually to keep current, here is a small inkling: 1st class medical (includes EKG) 2 times per year, random drug testing (whenever and wherever), annual recurrent training at the school house in simulators which can simulate any emergency you could ever imagine. There is NOT any other profession that is as closely monitored, regulated, watched, tested, abused than U.S. airline pilots. My doctor doesn't have to submit to random drug testing. WHY NOT? My doctor doesn't have everything he or she says and does recorded to be used against them if something happens in the operating room, WHY NOT?; pilots have the cockpit voice recorder and can have instruments that actually can send data back to the company if something is done improperly (not life threatening things; just like over temping an engine or something). I'm a hell of alot more afraid to have surgery than to fly on any airplane! I guarantee you it is alot more dangerous....................many doctors that I know have been in and out of rehab multiple times..........now that's scary.

Again, it's not the hours its the experience.

The article likens flying with a pilot-in-training to going to a medical student instead of a dcotor. This is true. But actually, that is what happens a lot of the time because that's how doctors are trained as well- in a hospital, seeing patients under the "supervision" of a licensed doctor. Sometimes you don't even know if the "doctor" you are seeing is a med student or resident being supervised or a licensed doctor- just like you apparently don't know if your co-pilot is licensed or in-training. The point is, it is a good way to train- on the job, under the watchful eye of an experienced supervisor. The article makes the case that Gulfstream-trained pilots are known for crashing planes once they get their licenses but does not mention any cases of Gulfstream co-pilots in training crashing planes. Is that because, under supervision, they don't?

this is terrifying. i think all pilots should be trained by the military or sully. i don't want to ride in a plane flown by a soft newbie. i would pay extra for real pilots any day of the week.

I think military pilots are the most highly qualified for safe passenger flight because they have a more solid foundation. However, with a big enough wallet and the commitment to do so a regular person can be a safe pilot. although all pilots starting from the civilian route that want to fly for a living should do cargo first. Then when the experience is gained, maybe passengers. I am finally working towards my dream of learning to fly, but to pay all the money you need for ratings and hours only to make 20k a year is for the fanatics and should probably get their heads checked anyhow.!!

Hey flying public; You want newer equipment, better pilots, no delays, better all weather aircraft, safer flights. Are you willing to pay double the airfare you now pay?

Get used to it all you cheap morons not willing to pay more for a better air transportation system.

You cannot compare the training given to a 200 hour cadet in an airline like Lufthansa, BA or SQ. Gulfstream's training does not even come close! Besides, those cadets are not aloud to "fly" the aircraft until they have sat in the cockpit and observed for several hundred hours as S/O's.

25%+ of all Airline Pilots graduated from EMBRY-RIDDLE AERONAUTICAL UNIVERSITY. They are the best pilot training institution in the nation, and possibly in the world. 4 years of aeronautical education leading to a BS plus top notch flight training. That's where I went and I would recommend it to anyone. Flying is serious business and should not be "expedited".

Cheers!

I have been working as an aircraft maintenance technician for 22 years. Thats 41,360 hours, for those who count, not including vacations. I can only say that after a pilot gains his experiance and is able to hire on to a main line carrier, is that his ego should be inflated enough to keep his aircraft aloft for quite some time. Super tube pilots are the worst, and you know who you are.

That being said, I have also met alot of pilots that have come up with some of the silliest write ups I have ever seen. Not only do these professionals lack knowledge of the aircraft and its systems, they also are missing the comman sense to put anything learned into a practicle use.

I dont want to seam like I hate pilots " some of my best friends are pilots" so I will say this. Look around at the people you work with. Are there some that wow you with thier problem solving abilitys? Are there some that handle pressure and stress with a halo slightly tipped to thier browl? Then there are probbably some that you can't fathom how they keep thier job let alone have been hired in the first place.

Put that into every day life and think of them when you; drive your kids to school, eat out at the local pub, buy any product that was made by "man". And let me know how you feel then.

GOODLUCK

Having worked for Gulfstream I can say this much....its all about the $$$$$. The Florida "Continental Connection" is such a joke...everyone working there is just hanging on until something better comes along.

Glad to see somebody finally brought this public...pretty scary to think that you should really hear "Oh hello this is your captain speaking...today my first officer joey and myself will be flying you at 32000ft above the atlantic ocean...Joey has about 200hrs private time under his wing and has been with me for roughly 2 weeks in this Beechcraft 1900. Granted thats duct-tape holding the overhead storage together...but don't worry as Joey has been doing great on his landings as long as its not slippery with rain...he still needs a bit of practice there. Who knows maybe when we get into Key West or Nassau he will have a chance to try out his wet landings again...so sit back and relax we should have you ON THE GROUND in no time at all"

Brian, I think you are spot on...but answering your question would not be newsworthy for Allan and Laura. GoJet, a United "contractor" out of ORD was hiring Commercial & Multi-engine license applicants last summer, hours didn't matter...as I wrote earlier- an industry problem, low salary = low exp.

Go to ER College and other large flight schools ( Silver State Helicopters, etc.) and get ripped off. You get the big student loan and they will gladly take if from you with OVERPRICED AIRCRAFT CHARGES, etc. Also; Don't just blame GULFSTREAM for the pilot factory problem. Check into all of the REGIONAL AIRLINES and see who they are hiring; where they are hiring from, and how many flight hours these pilots have. There are some regional airlines that pay so little the pilots are able to apply for government aid, but if they do so they will be fired. To become a professional commercial pilot takes a lot of money and time. Yes, if you short cut the time and push a pilot through a fast program it sometimes has consequences, but please don't punish the good for the ignorant.

This article is extremely bogus. I attended Gulfstream Academy back in 2001 and after training for 2 other Airlines, Gulfstream was by far the most rigorous training of all. I was the only one in my class that had over 1000 hrs of total flight time with almost two years of flight instructing experience. Even with this type of training, this program was no joke. Very difficult and high wash out rate. They don't just let anyone through. You have to earn it believe me. Programs like this should be modeled after for regional and major airline training. After Gulfstream I got hired by a very well known regional and the training was a joke in comparison. After spending 8 years of my life dedicated to college, flight instructing, training programs such as Gulfstream and 3 years at a regional, I decided that the industry was absolutely ridiculous. Sleeping in the back of the aircraft during overnights, 16 hr duty days and washing underwear in the hotel sink because the company decided to keep me on the road longer was not for me. Maybe I could have stuck it out if I had made more than $16K my first year or $19k my last... These are the reasons that aircraft's are going down. Even though I am out of the game now I still want the public to know the abuse that goes on for crew members. It has to change and it has to change now.

First, I have been a professional pilot for 18 years, started flying in 1972. So I guess that gives me at least some insight into this industry.

First, "maddawg", even though you speak the truth, your comments have all the spin and resonance of an honest-to-God boot-licking, brown nosing, ass-kissing corporate lacky / monkey-boy!!!! CEO's and board members have alway blamed pilot's for everything that goes wrong. Personally, I'm tired of it!! How about putting blame where blame is due .... FRANK LORENZO!!!! He's the Harvard Bastard that started the demise of the Golden Age of Aviation! Such was his "contribution" to aviation that Congress actually put into law that he could no longer run an Air Carrier!! Combine his efforts with those of deregulation and you have the so called "perfect storm" that is now coming to maturity! Add to that the fascist/corporate take-over of our country where CEO's and Board members pay lousy salaries, cut corners everywhere including maintenance while padding thier Golden Paracutes and getting away with it!. What are the results? Well, we're seeing them now. I'm truely surprised it has taken this long for the problems to surface. What pilots ARE to blame for is accepting the so called "excuse" that they need to accept pitifully low wages, long hours and brutal scheduals to gain experience that they need to get that prestigious Major Airline Position!!! Instead, they accept these lousy jobs with their lousy pay and conditions, B.S.ing themselves that the rewards will come later. I know, that's exactly what I did! And it got me nowhere!!

This forum has exposed many truths but also many misconceptions. I don't have any knowlege of Gulfstream's training practices, so I cannot truthfully coment on them. But I do feel they are being used as a scape-goat, even though there may be some actual culpability on their part. What I do know is what I have experienced. I started out at a small local airport. My first instructors were ex-military pilots from WWII and they trained me well. Then I went to one of those pilot-mills, Comair Aviation Academy. The training I received there was also of good quality. But this was19 years ago and not sure what the standards are today! But I too have seen a decline in the quality of pilots being produced. What's worse is their attitude! Many come from well-off parents who have obviously spoiled them rotten. Their work ethic usually sucks and they want it all and they want it now!! There is also what I call the "New Breed" of pilot. The ones who seem devoid of principles and ethics and believe in advancement through elimination. Eliminating other pilots that is!

My first flying job was that of instructing, for more than 2 years. Then "single-pilot-IFR" cargo operations for more than 3 years. In these 5 years I literally "paid my dues"!! So why am i unemployed, why have I been passed over for better Airline jobs? Two reasons. My age and affirmitive action. I stood there and watched my students, with no experience, being hired by Major Airlines and Cargo haulers because they were of specific minorities, while my resumes and applications were being ignored! Today, because of my age, I'm still being ignored while 20 something flight school grads, with no experience what-so-ever are being hired to go straight into the right seat of commuters, while the captains they are flying with are those who moved over from the right seat. So what we have is total inexperience flying with little experience. And we wonder why there are so many accidents. In short, ALL Air Carriers have been practicing "Age Discrimination" along with affirmitive action. I have seen this first hand in ALL of the interviews that I did actually get to do! Most Air Carriers don't want experience. They want cheap labor! And experience pilots know better and therefore are considered by air carriers to be pains in the asses.

As many of you pointed out .... it's all about the MONEY!! If a plane crashes, so what!! That's what insurance is for. And forget about the FAA!! I have and seen pilots notify the FAA about illegal practices and watched as the FAA Safety Inspectors investigated the complaints and came back and said, "The owner denied the claim! Case closed!" So apparently, the FAA is on the side of Big Corporations!

In closing, I am saddened that it has come to this and that scores of people have to die to bring the truth to light. I truely love to fly and love aviation and I hope one day the Golden Age of Aviation will return and become the "Faternity" that it once was.

There is no comparison between ab initio training at European carriers or in the Air Force to the training at these flight academy puppy mills. For starters, there is the screening process. The Air Force and Europe’s carriers screen for the most qualified candidates that meet aptitude requirements. Places such as Gulfstream screen for ability to pay. European airlines and the Air Force train above and beyond FAA requirements and should not be used to justify the near minimum standards met by these flight schools. There are thousands of laid-off experienced airline pilots in this country that could bring the safety that comes with experience; but, they do not work for poverty wages. It is more profitable for Gulfstream to pay poverty wages to someone paying to be trained than to hire an experienced pilot.

EVERY BODY KNOWS IT, NO ONE CHECKS! NEVER EVER!! WILL CHECK IF A PILOT HAS OR NOT 3000 HRS OR 300 HRS THERE IS NOTHING THAT ALLOWS TO CHECK IF IN FACT ARE REAL OR WRITTEN, THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE IT IS BY DOING THE FLYING WITH A PEN AT HOME THEN FOR SURE YOU WILL HAVE WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE INDUSTRY “THOUSANDS OF HOURS’, SO NEXT TIME DO NOT GET WORRY ABOUT THAT YOUNG PILOT IN FRONT TAKING YOU ON A FLIGHT!!! HE/SHE HAD TO DO IT SIMPLY BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY TO MAKE IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY FROM A "CIVILIAN PERSPECTIVE"...WAKE UP!! THERE IS NO WAY TO PROVE IT TODAY!

While it certainly seems improper to be training pilots in planes that have passengers (to say nothing of charging for those flights), an important question this article fails to ask is "how many flight hours are these pilots logging?" The reason it takes most pilots many years to become qualified for a right seat in an airliner is because they can only afford to fly 2-3 times a week. But if a person pays a lump sum and can fly 5 days a week and log those hours quicker, then it's the same amount of experience. It's all about spending time flying an airplane, not how long it takes. That's why airlines (and the FAA) all have requirements in terms of hours logged in aircraft, not years of experience.

Let it be known that medical students DO NOT and CANNOT treat patients. For those of you who dispute the analogy.

I could write a book on this subject, but I won't. But what I will do is give you a small bit of info. you will find also as bad as the Pilot Factory story. If you look at the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR's). You will find out the only penalty mentioned is the loss of the vary thing that all pilot wish to keep and that's their pilots license. But lets say you crossed the line with the FAA and they did take your license. If you own your own aircraft all you have to do is get in and fly home from the hearing. THERE IS NOT PILOT'S JAIL! And they will actually have to see you flying in order for them to do a thing to you then. 1,500 should be the minimum, but the FAA's minimums are just low enough to get you killed!

The detractors interviewed here have an agenda too. Like others have said – how many crashes have been blamed on "experienced" pilots; pilots with thousands of hours, etc? Accidents caused by the crews usually occur because someone did NOT follow their training. If you don't do it the way you were trained, or don't pay attention to what the plane is doing, it doesn't matter how many hours you have.

Required time in office? Typical bigot, right thomas klein. Why all the complaining you want to fly for free what do you expect?

Re: Scott. I'm an instructor at a major airline and the civillian pilots with real instrument time are by far my best students, we're not dropping bombs anymore.

I am a graduate of Gullfstream program.I recieved 1st class training and had nothing but good thing to say .Oh by the way all my classmates are currently in various airlines with many carriers due to the fact that they went threw the program.These socalled pros need to check there facts.

This is the same company that was found using automobile parts on their airplanes in 2008.

I worked very hard to get my certificates/ratings and flew many hours with students building time. I've been flying over 20 years now and question why I never got my shot. It's the secret handshake. I'm an accomplished naval officer and very safe, competent civilian pilot. I understand customer service, professionalism, and I wear my uniform with pride. People that know me are baffled that I have been shot down by immature, inexperienced kids that were willing to pay the mighty dollar, keep their nose clean, and get the "guaranteed job interview". Don't get me wrong, not everyone fits this category. But, some out there do. I also had the integrity not to fudge my logbook...I wonder how many people out there have done such a thing?

I love how the ignorant public just throws out a blanket statement like "All pilots in an airliner should have a vast amount of hours and experience" like people are magically going to have that thrust upon them at some point when deciding to apply to an airline. You think flying checks around in a light twin or towing banners or flying skydivers is going to give you the experience in a 50,000lb jet travelling at Mach .78 when something goes wrong? Absolutely not. You don't learn to ride a mountain bike well by spending years riding a tricycle. There are a number of these pilot mills out there other than Gulfstream which supply most pilots at the regional level now. How many years did we go without an accident here in the US with thousands of flights daily operated by these "unqualified" pilots up front? Thats why there are 2 pilots up there...a first officer and a CAPTAIN. Yes folks thats right, a captain that does have experience. So where did many of the captains get that experience? Yep, in the right seat at a regional. The days of the military pilot filling the ranks at airlines is long since gone. Its a whole new ballgame now folks and for the most part these pilots are safe. A reginal FO is held to passing the same checkride as a mainline captain and has yearly PC checks just like everyone else.

RE: Randy who said:

May 28th, 2009 11:17 am ET

I guess my brother-in-law chose the wrong school. He went to a school owned by Delta that is also based in Florida. He spent two years, $100k and now works a part time gig at a party store due to the lack of jobs. I sure hope these companies continue to take peoples money and line the pockets of their execs while the newly trained pilots come out owing thousands in student loans while they flip burgers and struggle to support a family.

RANDY! Is that you? =) Comair Aviation Academy was a great school.... if you're talking about Ralphie, I'm sad to hear this.

Leslie

Just shows what you get with hastily-trained amateurs put in a position of responsibility, far over their heads. Talking about the pseudo-journalist who wrote this ill-informed piece, of course.

What an assine report by an ignorant journalist. Cnn you should be ashamed.

Although it is crazy-expensive, Embry Riddle in Daytona is the best school in the world for aviation. If you can afford it, that would be the best bet for aspiring pilots. Derrick S. (ERAU '89-'92)

As a commercial pilot and chief executive of a CFR part 135 Commercial Operator and CFR part 141 Flight School, I feel compelled to comment. Distill these safety concern into three parts: Regulatory Compliance, Economics & Skills. Training guidelines are designed, published and regulated by the US Government (FAA). Once an operator complies, that operator then writes its own hiring standards which is tempered, in part, by how much liability an insurance underwriter is willing to take on. The "cheap tickets online environment" then puts the big squeeze on profitability, so now payroll pressures contribute to the consideration of hiring lower time, lower paid guys (but that may make insurance go back up). It's a business (TCO) dance. As for skill, some people are extremely good at operating heavy machinery and some people should just keep their hands away from moving parts. Highly skilled, big heavy drivers deserve to be paid big wages. This is quickly becoming NOT the case in the US air carrier environment, as most customers will only pay the cheapest price. "Air safety" and "cheap" are at odds. By the way, the next time YOU board a plane, ANY plane, ask YOUR pilot, "How much night IFR time have you logged. How many times have you shot an approach in IMC down to minimums?" Say those exact words then watch the look on his face.

Many of the previous comments boil down to "I expect every pilot/doctor/bus driver/etc to be fully trained before he works for me!" without thinking about the impossibility of that. Nobody comes out of the classroom, no matter how good the classroom, ready to function alone. Every job I can think of has some period of on-the-job training, actually DOING the job under the supervision of someone more experienced. For a job like "surgeon" that period can easily last longer than the "classroom" training. For jobs like doctor, pilot, police office, soldier, and many others there just no other way to learn what they need to learn. And even when they have reached the point of being "fully trained" (such as Board Certification for doctors, Captain for pilots, etc), the learning doesn't stop.

Airlines have to train their people on the job, just like every industry. No company is going to say, "Welcome to your first day at Delta. Take Bill here as your copilot, and fly that 747 with 300 passengers to London. Here's the keys." Even if you've got 5000 hours (which is a lot), they're going to start you off with a more senior pilot, both for training and to evaluate how much you really know.

There is no such thing as an "amateur pilot". "Amateur" is a loaded term and creates a false impression in the reader's mind. The authors should get their terminology straight. There are student pilots, private pilots, commercial pilots, and air transport pilots. The school in Florida brings commercial pilots up to air transport pilot skills, experience level and capability.

Well Im just wondering how long before the victims' families name GulfStream in their wrongful death suits.....Helllooooo...this in unconscionable.....

This is very disturbing, I fly couple times a year and it's mostly the larger airlines, But what about those small hop
connections.? The flying public ought to be outraged at this issue.
Need to keep close eye on these pilots and their inferior
flying school.

This is the result of lack of proper regulation.

I have over 30,000 hours flying military,airlines,and flight instructing. when I hired on with the airlines the basic requirment was 3500 hours and military training. Pilots were held in high reguard, highly respected, and well compensated. Today pilots are hired with as little as 450 hours, and no military training. It is not the low fares that prompt the airlines to pay so low, It is the market. young pilots are mostly not married, live at home, have no monitary responsibilities,and can, and will work for minimum or below wages. A new commuter jet can cost over 30 million dollars, if an airline can afford payments like that , they could afford to compensate expierenced pilots with a decent wage. even the ticket agents make more. Greyhound carries around 50 passengers yet pays its drivers twice what a pilot makes on a commuter airline. expierence cannot be replaced, pilots need to have more pride than to except a minimum wage job flying a jet aircraft.

There will be accidents! I do not care how good a pilot is, sooner or later, Murphy Law comes into play and slams you. Are mistakes made? Sure they are and we will never get to a point in time when mistakes are never going to happen. Thousands die every day on our highways and you may or may not see one word posted on the TV nightly news. Let an aircraft go down and it all changes. GulfStream runs a top notch training center and for one accident to be even suggested that this may be part of their training program is just wrong. Take the time to check how many Gulfstream flights are departing and landing all over the U.S. every minute, every hour, every day. I'm impressed with their record and no, I have never trained with them.

Someone wrote:

"Instead of blaming the airlines why don’t you report on an American public who is too cheap to pay for the full fare prices that would be required to train proffisional pilots. You get what you pay for. Get over it"

This is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time.

Nobody is blaming all airlines – they are questioning the training methods and their quality employed by Gulfstream International Airlines. Similar methods work for Lufthansa and Quantas (which are considered "safe" airlines) so possibly the difference is in the execution. Maybe GIA training just doesn't impart a firm foundation.

Reading what others have written it appears that in most cases pilots are responsible for their own education and training until they are hired by the airlines. So cheaper fares wouldn't affect their training anyways. Once they are hired the airlines have to much liability not to send their pilots to in-service training to keep their skills current.

Cheaper fares result in bad food, baggage charges, fewer flights, crowded flights, low morale, and a poor travel experience, but I don't think it means less experienced pilots.

This pathteic how the media has played this up. In the Colgan crash they made a mistake they were'nt paying attention and made a mistake. How about not knocking every regional and regional pilot and ask the media for better facts. I fly for a living I fly with those guys that came out of bridge programs and not everyone is as inexperiecned and dangerous as the media plays them out to be. The regionals are safe. They are heavily watched by the FAA just like any major or legacy. Yes, accidents have happended but the correct way to address this would be wait till the NTSB has issued a final report and not hit on the inexperiance of regional carriers because there are alot of experiance in the regionals. But, nothing will prepare you for everything. I praise Sully for what he did and his quick thinking but it would have been a different story if he was in say Dallas or Atlanta. I just would like to see more facts.

Holly molly,,,,,,Since I lost my drivers license I'd sorta given up trying to drive anything for a living...While the judge said I couldn't drive anymore, he never said one word about not flying!!!

Gulfstream Acadamy, here I come!

Do some research. The FAA has a database of airline accidents that include pilot qualifications. You won't find any correlation between hours and crashes. Otherwise the FAA would have shut these folks down yesterday. (The government always worries about CYA above anything else.) Some extraordinarily experienced pilots have done some extraordinarily stupid things, the KLM 747 captain that took off without clearance and collided with another 747 on Tenerife comes to mind.

Ask yourself why modern transport aircraft have a "stick shaker" that warns of a stall. Why would experienced pilots with thousands of hours need a reminder of the main thing in Flying 101? Not just a light, but an in-your-face-there-is-no-way-you-can-possibly-ignore-this-warning-of-impending-death?

Practically speaking, there is little a jet pilot can do when things go Really Wrong. Like the horizontal stabilizer jack screw failing. Or the horizontal stabilizer falling off, or the rear cargo door blowing out.

And remember in the left seat is an experienced captain ... and it only takes one person to fly a plane.

Consumers have repeatedly made it clear they want cheap everything, consequences be damned.

A question for the veteran pilots. As an aspiring pilot who can't join the military because I'm too old what flight schools do you reccomend? Not including Universities because I have a degree already.

I am appalled about the quality of journalism CNN allows to hit the airwaves, this particular journalist lacks the basic knowledge of how the airline industry really operates, he's proud of his findings like a bounty hunter bringing a fugitive to justice.

If he were a bit more constructive on his criticism... He would personally interview some of the pilots, maybe even fly on one of their scheduled flights. Now... if he were really looking for something good to write about... How about attending a simulator session during a six month Pilot Proficiency Check or maybe even sit in class during Indoctrination?

Allan's criticism and reporting is an accurate reflection on how the media views the airline industry, unfortunately... there is no simple way to explain everything to the media, they jump to conclusions and misinform the general public, sadly... the general public is also very naive when it comes to the basics of the making of a pilot.

Allan's caption on the picture above: "CNN's Allan Chernoff investigates the air school that trained pilots of three fatal crashes."

Hey Allan... How about AVIATION SCHOOL instead of AIR SCHOOL on that caption? It really makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about, and in reality you don't.

I was a graduate from that academy, the training standards are very stringent and the transfer of knowledge from instructors to students is very efficient, a low time pilot is trained and expected to perform to standards set forth high time pilots, and it has been proven that a low time pilot can perform and sometimes excel the performance of a high time pilot working on the same environment. (FYI the highest washout ratio on this program are HIGH TIME PILOTS)

Thanks to the skills acquired during the course of employment at Gulfstream International Airlines... I am now a company instructor for another airline, and I must say that we have washed out Flight Instructors and Military Pilots more times than I care to mention, don't forget that although training might be excellent... Either from the military, an accredited university or Gulfstream's, the final result rests on the integrity of that pilot, is he willing to perform the way he was trained?

In short.... Allan... Get your story straight, do more research and then report, I think you fell very short and went trigger happy on this one and have subsequently misinformed the public.

My two cents...

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the Gulfstream program. Ask yourself...would you rather have a First Officer that has been training intensely for the past year, or one that has spent the past couple of years giving instruction in low-speed, not very complex small aircraft in generally good weather conditions? I can tell you that when I've let the typical flight instructor fly my fairly fast and complex aircraft they often make a hash of it because they haven't flown much themselves.

yes, there is value in teaching folks. But it falls off after a couple of hundred hours of doing so. The best pilots mainly come from very focused, intense programs.

The arguments about pilot pay are always ludicrous. The union enforced pay structures are ridiculous; the most highly paid have the lowest risk exposure and work the least amount (trans-continental captains) while the lowest paid have the highest risk exposure and most difficult job (RJ drivers.) I remember my first trip across the pond, sitting in the right seat, and watching a 747 slowly pass us 1000' above. I realized the laughable system as I was a 2LT getting paid $25k by the USAF while that captain made ~$200k, with far less responsibility and authority, and certainly much better and reliable equipment that I had. From first hand knowledge, I will argue untill my dying breath that airline pilots are ridiculously overpaid. RJ drivers are horribly underpaid, a medium needs to be found – but the solution is not the pay them the horrendous amounts currently enjoyed by the airlines.

I've been through is all...Military trained, combat experience, civilian training, corporate jet expericence world-wide, airline heavy jet experience world-wide, however, no moon walk.....
The ONLY way to clean up this industry is: 1. Pay top dollar. 2.Military pilots first(if you're no good they kick you out of the cockpit, not take your money and run) 3. Charge the cheap f__k flying public what it really cost. If they can't afford it, they can take the bus like the rest of the low lifes..........................

There's no way military training produces better civilian pilots - firstly your vast avionics and weapon systems training is useless; in the civilian world you don't have afterburners or an ejection seat to punch when you get in trouble; the aggressive decision making and flying you need in the military is opposite to what you need in civilian flying; the "blindly follow your superior's orders" mantra in the military is counter to modern cockpit resource management concepts; you have to say more than "copy" to ATC in the real world; you have to fly ILS approaches in the real world; you have bank angles you can't exceed in the real world; I could go on and on...

My dad was a flight instructor decades ago. He told me that student pilots, in order to get their hours up, would take things along to do in the plane, like books to read, school homework, etc, and then go flying. They'd climb to 10,000 feet so they wouldn't run into anything and just let the plane fly straight and level while they did something else, just glancing at the instruments and out the window now and then. So, cutting corners has been going on for decades. Skill is skill and some are just naturals at it.

The FAA is just as much at fault. I informed them about a pilot who was in training with a history of suicidal ideations and being on psychotropic medications. The person lied on there medical exam about it as well. They are currently flying commercial flights. Be warned you never now who is flying!

As a CFI myself, I'm concerned about these types of operations as well as the aviation profession in general.

A commuter airline will not be able to hire seasoned professionals at under $20,000 a year because anybody with a family or a mortgage couldn't afford to work for such minimal wage. Meanwhile, the margins for flight schools are so thin that unscrupulous schools do all kinds of things to save money.

The flight school across the runway, which is very well-known and established, laid off every instructor who had over 1000 hours last week because at the 1000hr mark, instructor pay goes from $14/hr to about $/18. So, the student pays $45/hr, of which the instructor only sees a fraction, but isn't told that all of the senior instructors have been jettisoned to make room for cheaper labor.

The students probably also aren't told that the school's entire fleet was grounded by the FAA less than a year ago for other shenanigans.
Nevertheless, they remain popular because they advertise that they're a "feeder" for a couple of local commuter airline.

Of course, the general public still thinks pilots are overpaid and that tickets are too expensive.

One thing that nobody in the discussion has mentioned is that all the contributors are assuming that the actions a few pilots in the afformentioned accidents means most, if not all, of Gulstream's FO's are potentially unfit to fly right seat with competent captain.

Therei s a real danger of taking a couple data points, as is the case here, and then extrapolating those to tht total population of many 100's of individuals. It's an over generalization. I am sure that many of Gulfstrams's FO's are quite capabable to carry out their duties. T

That said, the low pay and fatigue factors are issues that deserve attention because these go beyond potential issues regarding training and experience.

Kudos to Capt. Patrick K. Moore! (yes, I remember from keeping excellent record(s), note(s), etc.) I'll be forever grateful that CNN took the time to 'listen' to his input with regard to the GIA segment I just watched on your network.

Thank you again, sir, for your professionalism, attention to detail, uncompromising 'expectation' of me to exceed the standard as an Airline Transport Pilot, when you personally administered my IOE (initial operating experience) in what was then, my very first 'checkout' as a 'Line Captain' in 'scheduled' commercial air carrier service...'once-upon-a-time', long ago.

Much has 'transpired' since then... and thanks to you, I'm STILL a 'doer' vs. a 'talker!'

You were truly a mentor to me then, as you are STILL to this day. Believe me when I say that 'your voice' is still clearly & difinitively 'heard' when I'm faced with 'real world', 'real time' challenges, decisions, etc., during day to day operations as an aviator...especially when things get 'busy' & a little 'dicey' from time to time.

Still 'out here' ...'tak'in-care-of-the-beef!' ...in 'more- ways' than one, of course!

Respectfully,

'Vertical'
ATP: B-737, BA-3100, CE-500, CL-65, G-100, HS-125, IA-1125
A&P, CFI, CFII, MEI, FAR 121

More sobering reality... Do you realize there are the same type of "schools" for CDL training? CDL as in Class 8 heavy truck. You know, the semi's that are always in your way... That's right CDL mills. And nobody even mentioned this. Been going on for YEARS yet we drive right beside them every day. They weigh upwards to 80,000 pounds and beyond, they take over a quarter mile to stop and will crush anything in their path.

The sheer quantity of big trucks puts them right up there with commercial airlines in loss of life and property, yet nobody pays attention to that.

Don't even get me started on health care.

Sadly, it appears many people have missed the point of why we are even discussing the issue and it has devolved into which flight school is better, whether military pilots are better, or maybe it is foreign ab initio pilots?!

The ENTIRE industry is "flawed" as it is run by people who see the chance to make a quick buck on the backs of people chasing a dream. Granted, "the dream" has become a nightmare for many already IN the industry, but while there are still people willing to pay the extortionate amounts of money for a few weeks training and some OJT in the right seat of an "airliner" it will continue.

Safety is SUPPOSED to be the first and last thing. Unfortunately, those of us INSIDE the industry know it is a joke! Margins are tight in the industry and that bottom line imperative rolls all the way through the industry and safety margins suffer right along with everything else. The FAA has bare minimum standards and most airlines barely meet them! Aircraft fly around "broken" all the time, because larger aircraft has a Minimum Equipment List, which was ORIGINALLY to allow aircraft to fly from a remote location where they broke and land at a maintenance station where they can be fixed. However, airline now use these MELs to allow their aircraft to fly with inoperative equipment for days, weeks and months without EVER repairing them. How can they do this? They simply say that the aircraft has not had a "maintenance opportunity at a maintenance station!"

As for pilot training, to even attempt to compare military training and civilian training is a joke, unless you compare somewhere like Embry-Riddle, with an in-depth 4 year degree program attached to it, with a Military Academy graduate, who has also gone through very similar rigorous training. To even suggest that ANY REAL EXPERIENCE is gained in a three month program at Gulfstream, Comair/Delta Academy or the like is ignoring the simple fact that learning has 4 stages (Rote, Understanding, Acceptance and Correlation) and TIME and IMMERSION in the topic is needed to get beyond Rote.

The red herring of the foreign ab initio schools is just that...a red herring! Those schools take highly screened, highly intelligent recruits and put them through training that the airline themselves have designed to meet their own rigorous standards. When was the last time you heard of something stupid happening to a Lufthansa crew or British Airways crew, etc.. The difference in the US is that we say, "spend your own money to achieve the FAAs minimum standards for certification, then go and get your flight time working for any "fly by night" outfit that will take you and THEN we will pay you next to nothing to fly for us after a month of training in the aircraft we fly." And we wonder why these companies can get away with paying less than McDonald's wages?! As Sully said to Congress, "I am not exaggerating when I say that no-one I know IN AVIATION TODAY has any interest in their children getting into the piloting profession." It has become a "look at me, Ma, I am a pilot" job for young, know nothings who THINK it will be a great career. It will not!

Ask ANY PROFESSIONAL PILOT OF THE LAST 25 YEARS if they would do this again if they could have gone to law school, medical school, or any other professional work environment and they will, almost to a person, tell you they would never fly for an airline again.

The SYSTEM is broken and to heap all of that blame on the shoulders of two pilots who were trying to the best they could under terrible circumstances simply ignores the SYSTEMIC and DEEP SEATED PROBLEMS in aviation safety, training and oversight.

Wow! The comments for this CNN article are starting to look like one of the online pilot forums! I've thought about putting all of the money into training to become an airline pilot (in my family, you are either a flight attendant – been there, done that...or a pilot – ex military and civilian), but then I ask myself...is it wise to spend $30k, $60k, or even up to $100k to make maybe $20k starting out at a regional flying 6 legs a day in the same airplanes I used to pour cokes in? Oh, and the fact that my fiance (a pilot) and I have seen our parents go through paycuts, furloughs, and lose their pensions? Companies are not going to attract the best and brightest until they start raising requirements, salaries, and charging more for ticket prices. The public is paying the same amount for airline tickets that they were paying in the 1970's, not adjusted for inflation, operating costs, and rises in fuel prices. Unfortunately, the Golden Days of commercial aviation are over. Maybe I should just use college degree and forget about flying.

Howard,

I don't think comparing an Air Froce Pilots or Navy pilots to these student pilots fair. I know you might of gone to this school and feel threathen but relax, nothing is going to change by the FAA.

Try and make comparisons apples to apples....

Retired and still flying.

Ha! I 've found a way around this. I got my private pilot's license last year. No more lines, screaming babies, people kicking the back of the seat, or wondering if the pilot is hung over or inexperienced!

read the transcript of the cockpit voice recorded. The first officer didn't stop talking and asking the pilot inanne questions the whole flight. When she did actually do something more often than not she did the incorrect thing or had to ask to have an instruction repeated. She was completely unprepared to be in the cockpit of a commerical airliner and probably so was the pilot. But profits are king and 50 people dead, well, that's no big deal for an airline.

PDX Dave is correct. My brother trained and flew for Gulfstream. More than once he reported mechanical failure and equipment deterioration resulting in his declining to fly the aircraft. He went round and round with management. He no longer flies for them. Management was not interested in keeping the airplane safe, repaired or properly maintained regularly. Often FO's would take jobs flying back "broken" ariplanes to their home airports at their own risk for extra money. Says a lot about a company willing to have their pilots doing this and throwing bags and doing other odd jobs...Ask about flying in the bahamas...those are some stories, too. I wouldn't fly them. Still have know guys who do...make sure you're affairs are in order. Pinnacle, Colgan, Continental Connection, Gulfstream..call it whatever you want. All the same.

Pilot Factory – Simple: E-mail blast everybody you know and copy the FAA.gov and executives of the airlines you use most about your concerns. Low sales or at least the potential of it always get their attention – its the bottom line. Be alarmed, but be proactive.
I hope a smart airline company sees this as a marketing opportunity to set themselves apart by letting us know about their pilot's training & safety records!

This story is the result of highly unbalanced reporting. I have always been a fan of CNN, but this makes me worry about what other news I'm believing that may be completely biased. Gulfstream is not training commercial pilots any differently than anyone else, nor are they doing it any differently than it's been done for ages. These accidents are tragic, but they are not the fault of a school that follows the very strict guidelines provided and enforced by the FAA.

As a Captain and pilot of 20 years who has shared the skies with GIA for the last 10years I can attest to how true this article is. Gulfstream Airlines has for many years been the blacksheep of the commuter type airlines. I have flown with several of their former First Officers and have observed the unprofessinal behavior of their pilots on many occasion. I am not surprised that this airline is linked to these fatal accidents. The fact that their pilots have to pay for a job that others do not speaks for itself. I hope the FAA will start to scutinize their operation.

I echo the sentiments of Bill, Michael and others who stated the fault lies not in total flight time nor even the compressed training schedule, but the lack of screening inherent in Gulfstream Academy's pay-to-play airline program. Most people would agree that the military and major Part 121 carriers have a rigorous battery of psychological and proficiency tests that weed out the individual who may have the desire but not the qualifications to be at the controls of a jet aircraft. Marvin Renslow, the captain of Colgan 3407, busted virtually every initial check-ride he ever took, yet under the Gulfstream Academy system it simply meant re-testing until he had passed. Tragically this individual that had significant gaps in his knowledge and abilities, yet was "passed upward" through the regional airline system right up until the night he was a type-rated ATP airline pilot in the left seat of a Q400 blissfully along for the ride with his airspeed bleeding off to stall at the KBUF outer marker.

If the past is any future indication there will be a lot of hang wringing, but nothing will change until a critical mass is reached in the public's mind.

There seems to me a preconceived notion that all regional pilots are 18 years old and have only 500 hours. This is by far exception rather than the rule.

Pilot hiring has been pretty much non-existant over the past 2 years. This translates into even junior pilots getting a considerable amount of experience. You'd be hard pressed to find a regional pilot with less than 2000 hours at the well established regionals such as ASA and SkyWest.

Most regional pilots are opting to stay at the regional level instead where many find more "stability" than at the majors. Consequently you have some very seasoned pilots with hours well exceeding 10,000. The majors simply aren't as attractive as they once were to regional pilots.

On a side note, it was noted that fighter pilots are some of the worst pilots to have in the cockpit of an airliner. I've flown with a few ex fighther jock first officers and while their flying skills are above reproach, they are unaccustomed to working in a crew environment which is essential for safety. They often times require additional training simply to learn how to share responsiblitiy with another crewmember. Ego seems to be an issue

[...] CNN Special Report can be viewed here: Florida's 'pilot factory' Florida's 'pilot factory' – amFIX – CNN.com Blogs The Video link is at the bottom of the page. __________________ Thomas Talley CFI/II [...]

All this crying about the state of aviation safety in the US is fearmongering and irresponsible journalism if you want to call it journalism.

In order to get to the right seat at Gufstream airliens or any airline the pilot must first pass his FAA private checkride, FAA instrument checkride, FAA commercial checkride, FAA multi-engine checkride, FAA checkride at Gufstream in the beachcraft 1900, and then pass the initial operating experience and get signed off by a training captain.. That's alot of FAA checkrides that need to happen to earn that seat. alot of pilots fail their checkrides at Gulfstream and don't earn the right to fly passengers.

Their are federal regulations concerning pairing of low time innexperienced first officers and captains. The captain must have a minimum amount of experience to be paired with a new FO. The first officer has to complete a competency check evry 12mo.

All these checks are in place to insure pax safety.

High time pilots won't get hired at a commuter becasue the commuter is not going to pay for a piltos training and then he leaves when his furlough ends or he finds a better paying job. An airline has to keep a pilot approx 1 year to recoup his training costs.

I have flown 727's with new hire FO's with 400TT who were more on their game than some of the pilots I have flown with who had 5000 hrs.

The "major" airline pilots have no game. They are flight managers who program FMC's. When I was flying the 727 a few years ago I had a United captain who was jumpseating with us to Guatemala city and the only approach available was the NDB. I shot that NDB approach in bad vis with lightning strikes and some nice gusts with torrential rain. When we got on the ground the United captain said... " wow... I don't think I could have done that". The only time he shot an NDB approach was in the sim at his last annual.

The "major" pilots were overpaid, and the regionals are pitifully underpaid.

BTW.... I don't remember the last time Gulfstream had an accident. Can someone remind me?

Please read my prior post

Please stop getting hung up on the medical anology, it's just that an anology, few are always 100% accurate, they are simply used to illistrate the point.

I have flown with all types. I am 47 years old, that puts me in the middle of the equasion. I can comment about those "too experienced" as well. I can deride myself just as easily for I have my shortcomings as a pilot too. Please bear in mind the following, training can only teach you so much. Personally counting sim time, I have had dozens and dozens of checkrides, hundreds and hundreds of hours of training, and from that training comes a few common denominators; engine failures, fires, instrument failures, electrical failures, hydrolic failures. Sim time and all training time has this in common as well, it's VERY expensive. As a result all the "biggies are handled" few of the insidious gotchas are. As pilots we talk about the error chain. The truth is very few of us have had engine failures, even less fires-but almost every one of us has had a gotcha situation (likely several), one we couldn't predict, forsee or train for. Frankly I have learned far far more from other pilots, often their mistakes, than from ANY training. In doing so I have not repeated their gotchas. This what keeps us safe far more than simulator fires. Training shortens the process, it does not replace it.

I can take a class or course on blowing glass, but what would make me a craftsman? A pilot is a craftsman, it is a skill, not a science. It takes training, perception and lastly experience.

As for military vs civilian, I've seen both do pretty stupid stuff, and i've seen both excell. Each has something to add to the cockpit, each learns from the other. I'm pretty sure straffing runs in an F-16 bear little fruit in a snowstorm in Laguargia as did the countless trips around the patch I did as an instructor in a C-172. For all the strengths a military pilot has they have weaknesses as well. The F/O on the Air Florida crash in DCA was a F-15 pilot if I recall correctly. He was faulted for not standing up, not being forceful enough with the captain . Why? Perhaps he was too used to following orders (on the CVR he voiced his discomfort with the deice situation, but in a weak manner- this does not take away the captains responsibility)

Flying airlines is the big leagues my friends. Our passengers deserve the best. Almost all the time they get it, almost. When we race to the bottom line, pinch every dollar, surf the web to save a nickel, sometime, someplace it will go too far. The results here speak for themselves.

The saddest part, as is too often the case in aviation, it takes an accident to force change, I for one hope hope this will be the last.

Hope that the journalist can improve their research skills. They could have looked into Florida Tech, Embry-Riddle and Flight Safety's pilot "factories" and seen that outstanding training programs do exist.

Newly trained Lufthansa pilots fly – JETS! – as copilots with as little as 350 actual flight hours. They are however flying only with experienced captains for quite some time. This has worked well for the most part .................. the young lady flying the airbus that scraped a wingtip in Hamburg last year was one if these newly minted pilots. The senior – experienced- pilot took over and prevented the incident from becoming an accident.

Quality of training is most important, it allows one to stay safe while gaining experience. The Buffalo crash shows some of the industry problems:
Pilots not earning enough to live within a reasonable commute, (notice I did not say $$ =Safety)
Commute time component against duty time,
Experience in type and upgrade process.
Training Training Training - wonder if the captain had ever done a stall in a real -8 airplane

The U.S. airline industry is in need of a massive change perhaps even reregulation.

Howard, as a response to your post:
There are many more licenses that you left out in your post, such as the instrument rating pilots must get before getting a commercial rating, which contribute to a pilots overall understanding of how they can control an airplane.
Regardless of how pilots are trained. experience is necessary so they can aptly react to situations that may arise during flight. So yes, good training is needed but so is a lot of experience.

Just an FYI just like any other airline their training program must meet FAA standards. Also, once a pilot leaves the company to fly for another airline they must pass check rides with that airline as well, they don't just walk onto the job, no matter what training program they have come from. It would be nice if the media could stop falsifying the facts and jumping to conclusions with the information they are given just to get a reaction out of people and make a story sell and stop to think before they report on something they don't completley understand because this is peoples lives they are affecting.

[...] Pilot training like rider training? Filed under: Uncategorized - wmoon @ 8:45 pm There’s an entry I’ve been meaning to write for months now. I try and delete and try again and delete again—one of these days the words will come.  Meanwhile, I’ve been working intensely on a project I’m not ready to discuss and, of course, been taking a closer look at various states. All that was on my mind this morning when a story on CNN this morning got my attention, “Florida’s Pilot Factory”. [...]

After driving light trucks for eight years I took a quick course to qualify for my CDL class A license. I left with my first load and a great trainer, much younger than me but he had generations of experience to draw from and he taught me well. Even though I had years of professional experience, my trainer was the key in the big rig to survival on winter mountains. You have to learn somewhere, somehow, you need judgement and a willing trainer/mentor otherwise you are a danger. How do you know that the the big Peterbilt next to your car on the Hwy isn't being driven by a complete novice? you don't. Same with planes. Let people learn and they will surprise you with their ability.

First of all, how can anyone link the gross negligence of those pinnacle airlines idiots to Gulfstream. They were young and stupid trying to push an aircraft to and beyond it's maximums. How is that Gulfstream's fault? Second, Capt. Renslow of Colgan had 3,379 hours of experience and 4 years at Colgan Airlines. He went through Colgan's training on all aircraft he flew for them, and had annual checkrides as required. Again, how is this Gulfstream's fault? Is 3,379 hours for a captain of a regional airline making $40k – $50k too few hours? He was not flying with 250 hours.

Also, correct me if I am wrong here, but I do not see any articles on Google about any fatal Gulfstream Airline crashes in it's 20+ years of operation.

If you think that's bad, look at who drives your kids to school.

This news article just goes to show how stupid news reports can be as well as all you idiots who listen to this crap. The pilot that crashed the plane in buffalo was gone from Gulfstream for 5 years...yes 5 years. So why doesnt Colgan airline take the blame for this accident since it was their pilots?!? And as far as the pinnacle pilots go...i mean i shouldnt even have to say anything about that. "Hey lets take a plane up to 41,000 feet even when the ceiling of the aircraft is less than that." Its stupid people making stupid mistakes. If you run a red light and slam into another car killing several people, should we see a report about the drivers ed school that trained you to drive?!? come on

"Eric May 28th, 2009 10:49 am ET

As an airline employee, I expect that my flight crew is well trained and experienced to handle all situations that may come up during a flight. To me, it is rather disturbing that this “flight school” would actually put trainees in the cockpit with a Captain and unknowing paying passengers. Personally, I would never get on a plane with a First Officer that has that few hours in the air of experience. Certainly the majority of the flying public would likewise be horrified and consider flying another airline."

As a fellow airline employee, I find it hard to believe that you are not aware that every airline has their very own training that they give to the pilots that they hire, in succession to the previous training given to them to acquire the commercial or airline transport pilot license.
Another reason why I do not believe that you are an airline employee is that you do not know that a first officer is not always in control of the aircraft and sits next to another pilot that has well over 1,500 flight hours and a bachelors degree to react to any situation that happens during flight.

Gulfstream, Airline Transport Professionals, Embry Riddle, and any other training academy gives you the education and testing needed to acquire a commercial pilots license which is 250 hours minimum and then they are subjected to oral and physical test. For an Airline Transport Pilots license, you needed at least 1,500 flight hours.
It is not poor training that led to these accidents.

Let's not forget that highly trained pilots like Capt. Sully also have accidents. He was highly trained as well, but it takes more than a pilot to keep a plane in the air. Accidents will and do happen. As was stated numerous times, our military pilots are put in the cockpit and taught to fly without any prior experience and in a matter of a couple years they're flying high performance aircraft in close formation, or launching off carrier decks. With 200 hours they have a lot of experience qualifying them for the right seat. Plain and simply put, you don't get experience by not flying, and each aircraft is different. The hours do not make someone a good pilot. The attitude and dedication does. Let's not forget about the pilots who've been caught flying drunk, sleeping, etc and they have 5,000+ hours. There are plenty of pilots who have gotten "lucky" not to have drilled a hole in mother earth. To put it into perspective, how many people do EVERYTHING they were taught in driver's education, and how many hop in a car and go? It's easy to become complacent which is equally as dangerous as lack of "hours".

Numerous inaccuracies in this report as well as every other sensationalized news account recently. The first reporter gets it wrong, and the rest quote the first because they are too lazy to go get their own facts.
Too much crying over Gulfstream. "Pilot factories" are no different from doctor factories aka 'medical schools'. You pay them for professional training, you get taught the basic requirements for your licensing, you get a little real-time experience, and you are let loose on the world. The salaries for new residents and new pilots aren't that far apart, and the working hours of the doctor are far worse than those of a pilot. The reason for the salaries being at the levels they are is a very simple demonstration of supply and demand: There are enough people willing to work for that wage that the market allows (and demands) it.. Why is it that only 15-20 applicants out of every 100 make into the regional airline flight schools, and some number less than that graduate to become airline pilots, and then accept those 'stamp food' wages? Because they want to do it, period. Those who decry the low, low wages of a beginning pilot are in effect calling every civilian-trained pilot stupid for working for those wages because at one time or another, every single civilian pilot flew an airplane for not much more than food money. They want those jobs by the hundreds because the payoff is down the road when wearing four stripes at the major airlines. Next time you are flying, go ask the captain–or better yet, ask the pilot sitting next to you while he is commuting to his home across the country from where he is based–where he got his aviation start. Don't be surprised how many of them tell you they went to Gulfstream Academy. Or at least they would before Chernoff decided to try one more time for a Pulitzer prize in Investigative Entertainment Journalism.

Well... we all got to go sometime.

"Beth May 28th, 2009 10:59 am ET

I wouldn’t call the fares they charge from Ft. Lauderdale to Key West cheap – I looked yesterday and it is $315/person for a 1-hour ride – give me a break, can fly from NJ RT to Ft. Lauderdale for much less than that on a real plane."
Any fares value increases dramatically at the last minute. If you booked that flight even a week before that flight, you would have seen a 200 dollar difference.

May have been posted already, but the F/O on the Comair crash in Lexington was also a Gulfstream graduate. A simple way to remedy the lack of experience is require that all airline pilots, captains and first officers, hold an Airline Transport Pilot license which requires 1500 hours of flight time. Currently only captains are required to hold this license, first officers may hold only a commercial license which requires only 250 hours. As an experienced airline pilot I would recommend that everyone write your congressional leaders and urge this requirement.

I've gotta admit that in all the years that I've been flying professionally, some of the worst pilots I have flown with were ex-military. I can't explain it, perhaps it's because they are not trained for the same type of flying that the airlines train for, but they are more often than not some of the worst pilots out there.

Some good comments, some nutty, but this one from "John" takes the cake:

"Just another example of how our government and all its agencies are killing people.The whole USA is one big rip off to the taxpayers.Lets hope one of these tea parties is a march on DC to get rid of all the SCUM that run this country!!!"

This type of thinking is far scarier than the occasionally marginally-talented airline pilot.

There is so much not being said here. First of all, only 210 flight hours separate a new private pilot from a new commercial pilot (at least legally). What a pilot does in that flight time can make a world of difference in their airmanship. Were they practicing and training as hard as they can, or just flying to local airports to get a hambuger and build time? Who would you rather have as your pilot...a guy with 1000 hrs spread across various aircraft in lots of different flight enviroments, or a 1500hr guy who has all of his time in one type of plane who has always flown in good weather? I'll take the 1000hr guy every time. Quality + flight time = $$$$$$$, and airlines just won't pay for it. They know you're there to get experience which would otherwise cost you tens of thousands of dollars. Their attitude is "you're lucky to be here". When covering this subject, it's important to remember that under the current rules,individual airlines set the bar for their pilot requirements and pay scales, not the government. It's likely that is what needs to change. How is the bigger question........

If I board a plane the first thing I do is see the years of experience of the captain and first officer. If I see no grey hairs I start to wonder....

Pure and simple the FAA needs to crack down on these puppy mills and ensure that safety is paramount instead of greenbacks.

I know that United has had a track record of hiring Military pilots and found that although I don't endorse the airline for many reasons I think the pilots are top notch for tin tube pushers.

I've had the alarming experience of being stuck with community college trainees for an ambulance crew. After all of the bizarre things they did, I'm so happy to be here today. Cannot imagine being in the air with a 12-week trainee at the helm. No cheap ticket is worth that.

"Leah May 28th, 2009 11:11 am ET

How does one know that a flight is operated by Gulfstream International? Although I try to avoid commuter flights whenever possible, I do have to fly them sometimes. Yet I have never seen Gulfstream indicated on any of my flight itineraries."

It is impossible to know if your pilot is a graduate from Gulfrstream International's training, and you do not need to worry if he/she is from that academy because that pilot is a FAA certified professional pilot that has passed many exams and training, and has also received over 400 flight hours. The company that the pilot is assigned to is mandated to give your pilot even more training to ensure that you have the safest experience possible whenever you are flying.
Please remember that there are tens of thousands of commercial flights just in this nation every day, and before the crash in buffalo, the airline industry has seen two solid years of no fatal air crashes.
Flying is never safe, but there are thousands of professionals ensuring that it is being made as safe as possible.

A few years ago, Gulfstream Intl Airlines, had 16 engine failures (PT-6) on their B-1900 fleet in one year. Their maintenance department and practices are unsafe. The US Navy uses the same PT-6 engine on the T-34C trainer and fly thousands of hours and maybe only 1 engine problem per year. I was told by a Gulfsteam Captain not to go their to get experience and he felt his pilot certificate was on the line every day he worked there. This organization is bad news, should of been shutdown along time ago. Thank god I work for a company that has a very solid and conservative maintenance department and I trained with the US Navy and Marine Corps. I don't get paid very well but If I had to worry about the airworthyness of the aircraft,I would work some where else.

If Senator Burris wanted to be a commercial pilot he would pay his way into the right seat of Gulfstream Airlines.
I don't care if the person is civilian or military trained, experience is the only way to gain experience. The FAR's say a pilot with only 250 hours of flight time, and in the case of a FAR141 school even less, can be a Commercial pilot and charge for their services. Which doctor do you want to operate on you, one right out of school with minimum experience with your case or one that has lots of experience and this is old hat. Which one can handle something that happens out of the ordinary? It is the same with pilots, do you want a two to three hundred hour wonder that has absolutely no experience in ice, thunderstorms, rain, snow, high winds or what ever up front dealing with it for the first time or someone that has been working in these conditions and knows what to look for, what to do, and how to handle it. Look at the wonderful pilots the regionals pick up.....minimum time and I have seen a lot of that put in log books that is fake time as well. People want cheap tickets. How do they expect an airline to pay the folks who fly the airplane, load the airplane, fuel the airplane, provide training for the airplane, and the list goes on and on, a decent wage. As the old saying goes, you get what you pay for. Regionals are usually run by idiots that could not even get into the majors and have personalities of a cold turd.

In response to R. Lord...What the heck does "Bush" have to do with this, if you haven't heard or been around the country for a while, President Obama was elected in November. Oh, maybe you just listend to CNN, MSNBC, ABC, Air America, or NBC and you think Bush is still in charge as they are all blaming everything on him still. So sad...and so funny at the same time. Get a grip.

R. Lord- Why does the FAA approve this program even though it has much lower standards than other programs? Are the owners friends (campaign contributors) of the Bush family?

What about the Lufthansa program? As far as I know, Lufthansa has a good safety record. Can CNN take a look at that as part of this story?

Pay to sit in a cockpit while paying customers are in the back, is Dangerous, and totally irresponsible to say the least !! this is just another way to make a quick buck, and to get sub standard pilots into a job !!

no way will i fly on them !! you cant buy experience

Actually, you do go to a medical student for healthcare, you probably just never realized it.

I am an Airline Transport Pilot with 35 years experience, largely in the Northeast. I have reviewed the Buffalo crash in some detail based on public reporting, which is often in error. However, it is clear that the crash was the result of pilot error. It is also clear that this was not a one-time error, but a pattern of poor pilot performance. No regulation can absolutely protect against that. It takes good management throughout the organizations that have trained and hired these pilots. It is likely that these pilots that caused the death of 50 people were poorly trained and managed.

http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=travel&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=91570

Regional Airlines are a joke. I am a corporate pilot and can attest to the fact that airline pilots usually preform at sub-par levels at least when trying to compete for jobs in the corporate environment.

We do see student doctors they are called interns/residents. Not full doctors but not still in school. That is the same things at Gulf Stream Intl. These pilots have their commercial ratings and are now in their internship.

I have flown with many of these pilots from Gulf Stream. Most are good but some aren't. That goes for any profession or industry and I have been in several. The issue is the experience or the lack there of. These Gulf Streamers had about 800 hours or so when they were hired. Then hiring got tough the airlines looked to other schools like Jet University. These Jet U pilots came to the airlines with 200 and 250 hours. The ink on their commercial licenses were still wet. Experience again is an issue and I was spare you the ugly details.

With all that said everyone has forgotten the commercial pilot back in the 1950's and 1960's were hired at the majors with 250 hours. The DC9's were the commuters of their day.

Finally, as someone else has already stated, if you want a ticket from NYC to Vegas for $100 you are going to get what you pay for. Greyhound bus drivers make about $45,000 their first year and a pilot makes about $19,000 to $20,000. This is the norm and the pilot generally has a 4 year college degree.

Pilots are powerless to change their contracts dude to the Railway Labor Act and not being able to strike. Pay is one issue and work rules such as crew rest is another issue. Don't get me started!!!!

Oh yeah...and when was the last Gulfstream Airlines fatal accident you heard of?!?! if you know of one please let me know.

This is why I will not fly commuter planes: most inexperienced pilots, longest hours, smallest pay, lowest amount of onboard safety equipment. ALWAYS ask about the equipment and make sure it is either Boeing, McDonnel Douglas, or Airbus.

The public and especially the news service has no idea how the aviation industry works and when the opportunity to make a story out of nothing comes along everyone wants to jump on board. Where do you think most pilots come from? Not the military. You won't find a fighter jock hopping between Newark and Buffalo in a twin turbo prop. Listen people, flying an airplane is not that difficult. Most of the newer aircraft fly and can land themselves. An airline pilot is a glorified bus driver living off of the legend of the airline pilots from the 50's and 60's that actually had to know how to handle an aircraft. Give thanks to the FAA and the modern aircraft you travel in. Safety is much greater now than 20 years ago. After all, you are getting in a tube and traveling over 500 mph at 37,000 ft. Things do go wrong! Do a story about the Truck Driver mills out there. They kill a lot more people than the airlines. And by the way, private pilot hours are nothing like commercial pilot hours. I haven't seen too many Cessna props that do Mach .75.

Ann and others should know: ALL airline pilots recieve at least annual training and full light exam. Captains get it every 6 months. And, complete physical every 6 months. No other profession imposes such strict regulations. Would you bet your life on a doctor who has not had any training/exam in last 5 years? Peopl,e do every day. How about your lawyer? Not to mention your "financial advisor". Reality is, training and experience are what counts, and US pilots are the best trained and best qualified. Yet, let's not forget .... humans make mistakes. It is, and will always be, much more dangerous to drive to the airport than fly the flight.

This artcle says:

“I really don’t want somebody in the right seat that’s just learning, that’s gaining experience, said Moore. “I want an experienced crew. When I buy an airplane ticket, that’s what I’m paying for.” He compares it to going to a medical student for healthcare instead of a doctor.

Apparently the commenter has no idea how medical training is done. All doctors go through an internship at a real hospital, under the supervision of doctors, which often involves making life or death decisions about patient care. They are still in training at this point, but they have demonstrated that they can safely act as a doctor, just like these pilots by and large have done.

There is an old saying..."Judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement." As a previous Captain and Line Check Airman, I taught many "new" pilots how to be competent line pilots. There is a steep learning curve when teaching younger pilots the rigors of line flying. There are only so many things you can teach a pilot in the simulator. The rest comes from flying the line and working through the endless scenerios that face us every day.

A check pilot cannot teach judgement. It comes from flying thousands of hours in the cockpit. Mistakes happen in cockpits. The key is learning from those mistakes without becoming a victom or receiving a violation. Total flight hours in not the only measure of quality. It is the type of flying, and evnironment that pilot has been flying in that makes a good aviator. Stick and rudder skills are important, of course, but good people skills, and the ability to manage your crew is also paramaount. On a B747, that flight deck crew are managers and leaders of the equivalent of a small town. One mistake can cost 400 lives in a heartbeat.

United Airlines, FYI , has not had a pilot caused fatality in 37 years. Not since a nervous DC-8 crew let its stubborn Captain work a gear unsafe indication for too long and ran the plane out of gas just short of the runway in Portand in 1972.

High time, experienced pilots are the norm at the "Majors." Those co-pilots are former Thunderbird pilots and Captains. They just don't have the seniority yet to be the PIC.

For the most part, the regional pilots are competent aviators. As the military source for pilots dries up because they are using more unmanned aircraft (UAVs) and the working conditions and pay at the "entry level" carriers remain piss poor, you will continue to see lower quality and lower experience levels in those cockpits because the expreienced pilots will not leave the military to chase those jobs anymore. In fact, we are seeing a severe talent drain at all airlines as pilots get sick of the abuse and leave to do other jobs that pay the same, for much better working conditions.

The solution? No more pilots should be allowed to fly any commercial aricraft without a higher minimum of flight experience. That takes time and money. The airlines do not have that money. The pilots in training do not want to invest in a future that does not compensate them for that imvestment. Safety, contrary to what the regional airlines say, in my opinion, is, and will always be compromised, until the work rules, and compensation, improve.

Like Sully said at the congressional hearings...I too, would discourage my kids from persuing an aviation career because of the poor conditions new pilots are forced to work under to acheive that eventual "big league" job of flying a large jet. Even those jobs, and the conditions we are forced to work under, are becoming undesireable.

All the postings present a good picture of the airlines industry as it is today. 1st., my former Marine son, who went to a private school that is now out of business in S.C. after the service, got all his ratings & I flew with him several times. He was trying to get enough hours to get on with the Majors flying blood/body organs, teaching, flying sky divers, etc. He did anything to build hrs. & needed, at that time, 800 . to get on with a Regional. His wife worked for a Major Airlines & he hoped to get on with their Regional. 9/11 hit & it ALL went out the window. Airports were closing, restrictions were being made, etc. So, his "dream" was over. Luckily!

He went back to being an electronic engineer, is making an obscene amt. of $, & actually writes his own ticket for his preferences of bennies where he works! And every former company he has ever worked for has an open door policy for him if he ever wants to come back. But what a pilot he would have made!!!!! Sounds like the good old days of yrs. ago when outstanding people were given merit based on quality.

His former wife, still a member of our family, graduates from Embry-Riddle this July & she's NOT a pilot. They DO have other airline degrees besides flying. And she's a Dispatcher for a Regional mentioned above. The things she tells us pretty much matches what most pilots are saying about lack of quality in airline flying schools & time in the air. Everyone my age always knew the military produced the best pilots, but there just aren't that many coming out of that sector anymore & the ones that reach 59 1/2 yrs. have tio retire..

My brother-in-law is a check pilot with an airline in Australia & makes @ $200,000/yr., so don't tell me the Majors aren't paying. But he spent MANY yrs. not making much $ until he could build up his resume. It's just the Regionals who are really screwing things up for the entire industry here. We are going "down under" to visit them, & as usual, we will be flying Quantas which has about as good a record as it gets. Why? Because I feel safer...or as safe as it gets.

Chris,
Virtually all individuals who have obtained their commercial pilot's license have done so without ever flying an airplane faster than mach .30, let alone mach .75. Facts are important here!

I think 1,200-1,500 HRs with at least COMM & MEL ratings should be the minimum to sit in the right seat of a Rev. generating flight. I'm amazed at how lax our standards have become. Pilots with less then 1,000 Hrs. are still in pre school as far as I'm concerned. There is a severe shortage of CFIs in this country let these kids train other kids for another 1.000 Hrs. or so. They'd have at least a modicum of experince at that point.

I am a pilot for a major airline. Due to this wonderful industry I have six airline jobs. Four went out of business and one I quit. I've been furloughed six times and the last one over five years .Currently, I'm serving in the military as an enlisted aviator for 25 years. Three different flying units in the military. So, are military pilots better ? It has little to do with your training by the military or by civilans. It has to due with attitude, judgement, CRM, and a desire to learn. I seen some terrible military and cilivan pilots, But, the ones that have my respect are the ones who have all the attributes I said. So, the next time you look at your crew, someone felt they had the qualifications to be there. We are all human and make mistakes.

If managment was forced to pay Pilots what they are worth and not be able to exploit the work rules at every turn while the goverment and mediation boards do nothing to stop and only help by dragging out mediation for years! I've worked in the airlines for 8 yearsand like many others I'm now laid off (furloughed)! I was also rebased with 18 addresses in those years! try to have a family and life a normal life with that...

we work in a industry with no respect for its workers, no job security, and asked at every turn to do more withless while continuing to provided perfect record. if the public only knew what it takes to operate an airliner safely with n the laws and operational daily and the things we do daily above and beyond they would strike for us...

its criminal that regional airlines can actually pay a airline pilot $17,000 a year to start !!!! I believe goverment needs to start taking a hard look a pay and work rule structure, because its like anything else in america you get what you pay for $$ attract quality and professionalism.

just one Airline pilots opinion...

I'm commercial pilot, and those pilots out there know that there is a lot to go into flight training. Reading some of the hundreds comments some good some bad, regardless of where you got trained to fly you have to pass regular test and evaluations to fly, that being said without a doubt in my mind some pilots that have their comm. rating really shouldn't be flying. CNN really made gulfstream look bad without doing a little bit of resurch

Riddle pilots are the best – I know because they tell me all the time.

To the person who was suggesting that transportation industry workers be tested annually....Airline pilots probably go through more testing and training every year than any other profession. Captains are required to under go a minimum of 2 checkrides a year where they are drilled on basic, advanced and emergency procedures on top of an annual line check where they are tested on their proficiency to conduct normal line flying operations. This is in addition to recurrent ground training on aircraft systems, operating procedures, crew resource management, etc etc etc etc.

I meant "research"

Its interesting to me (a commercial pilot and CFII for 38 years) that the airline and the FAA call the Buffalo Dash-8 crew "inexperienced." The FAA sets the minimum standards (ref FAR 61). If they had too little experience, its up to the FAA to regulate that.

All this is a smoke screen to blame the crew instead of the fact that neither the pilot nor the copilot ever actually stalled a Dash-8, or felt its stick shaker & stick pusher. The combination of the stick shaker and stick pusher perfectly simulated a tailplane stall, and the Captain's reactions were exactly correct for a tailplane stall. The problem was, of course, that it wasn't a tailplane stall, it was a wing stall, perhaps brought on by the autopilot stopping the decent and proper power not being applied. That again points, not to flight crew inexperience, but airline training (overseen by the FAA).

Last year I've flown with a lot of these low time, get to FO seat quick pilots. All but one are pretty weak. No airmanship. One in particular was so bad that I would be all alone if something goes wrong.

There are a lot of things that happen during any segment of flight. With no airmanship, skills and that 'second' nature touch, I feel that passengers really get the short end of the stick when they get on those airplanes.

I am a professional airline pilot that has left the airlines in search of higher pay. Let me first say that I received a four year degree in Aeronautics from a reputable University. The wages that pilots receive today is a huge part of this problem. I am sorry, but people expect experience and professionalism, yet they aren't willing to pay for it. Would anyone dream of going to a surgeon that was paid $18,000 a year. As a result, the experienced and qualified pilots are leaving the airlines and the general public is losing this resource. Yes, the airlines are to blame for placing these inexperienced trainees in the cockpit, but more so for forcing the senior pilots out of the cockpit.

[...] [...]

[...] [...]

It is what it is, a cheap way of getting a pilot the necessary credentials to fly commercially. Thats it and woefully inadequate in my humble and professional opinion. These accidents make the case,there is a common theme here.

You could never convinvce me that these type of training pilots actually have what is necessary for that "quick call" situation that demands experience and sound judgement until they have at least 2-3000hrs of actual flight line experience.

For this reason I do not fly on Gulfstream flights or any other of these type of airlines.

After 9000hrs of professional flying I have an idea of what it takes.

my 2 cents.

I, flew with GulfStream about 17 years ago and now fly for a major airline. The reqirements to be elligible for a pilot position for the regional airlines in those days were a minimum 2000 hours, ATP rating and college degree. The requirements for the major airlines in 1991 were at a minimum 3000 plus hours most of that time as pilot in command at a regional airline or a military pilot. The competition was stiff and only the best had the PRIVILEGE to sit in the cockpit of that o so coveted job. What happened! The job and duties have not changed. It's still a very demanding job that requires skill, judgement and experience that you only achieve through working with those older and wiser than you. Now, lots of the older pilots have opted to retire and the airlines are replacing them with low cost and inexperieced pilots. Unless this trend is reversed and the wages and working conditions at all the major airlines improve I would expect to see the safety and reliability of our airlines go way down.

We should all say thank you to the FAA for what we have today, and remind them to make their side of the bed when they & the Airline Industry get up in the morning. Pilots don't make money, Airline Executives make money.
Hi Tim.

When I step aboard an aircraft, I want to see, as I tell my friends, "gray hair" walking into the cockpit. Meaning a pilot or copilot with years of experience, a library of air knowledge, from the military or whose flown years in similar aircraft, with a thousand or more hours of flight time. Yes, it's a tall order, but then it should be when lives aboard an aircraft and those on the ground are at stake. A copilots job is not only to assist the pilot with cockpit duties, but also be able to take charge of all commands of the aircraft, if the pilot becomes disable ! Short cuts are only short circuits to the ground !
Ken J.

I can't stand this type of "reporting". Stop trying to hang an entire grouping of people out to dry because of the actions of a few. If anyone had bothered to do a bit of research before writing this article they would know that pilots are required to pass flight reviews and most do take recurrent training.

To all the people that posted actually using the FARs as a reference and also the military training-thank you! We've got a news station here that tries to make stories like this about once a month. I'm tired of GA being the fallback when nothing else is going on.

When I step aboard an aircraft, I want to see, as I tell my friends, "gray hair" walking into the cockpit. Meaning a pilot or copilot with years of experience, a library of air knowledge, from the military or whose flown for years in similar aircraft, with a thousand or more hours of flight time. Yes, it's a tall order, but then it should be when lives aboard an aircraft and those on the ground are at stake. A copilots job is not only to assist the pilot with cockpit duties, but also be able to take charge of all commands of the aircraft, if the pilot becomes disable ! Short cuts are only short circuits to the ground !
Ken J.

Gray hair? Suddenly when your hair turns gray-WHAM-you acquire thousands of hours of experience? Naturally all this time was acquired flying over Vietnam, because only military pilots of that era know how to fly. Dropping ordnance on target automatically equates to knowing how to fly in bad weather better than someone else.

What a joke. Back in World War II a 24 year old pilot WAS old. Next thing you know, that pilot's hair is TOO gray. So, a pilot's career lasts from age 55 to 60? Smart.

And, this might be heresy, Captain Sullenburg did what any student pilot is trained to do in case of an engine failure-find the best suitable place, drive up to it, and LAND.

RJ hit the nail on the head. Cheap tickets. Did you go to experiencedpilot.com or iwanttogettheresafely.com to buy your ticket? People shop for the cheapest thing in sight and then are mortified to find boarder-line safety practices and lack luster service. The flying public voted with their wallets. You are getting what you have demonstrated you are willing to pay for.

As for Suzanne who thinks you have to go to Riddle to be safe, we all know you think it's the best. Prepare for a career of people making fun of you.

At present, GIA has a program in which First Officers pay for their training in the Beech 1900 and fly for a block of 250 hrs as a line qualified First Officer. This program undermines the airline pilot profession in the view of many, particularly union members. To gain experience, pilots with low experience often pay over $32,000.00 to ride in the right seat of turboprops in duty positions normally occupied by a paid professional; albeit one that receives very little pay. This was also the case with captains early on with candidates paying $15,000 up front starting in 1992 with Avtar International doing the recruiting and advertising. However, these pilots received compensation following successful completion of Initial Operating Experience (IOE). The Captain's Program was initially for the CE-402B/C but later expanded to the BE-1900 and SD3-60 until the latter were repossessed. So called "Pay to work" programs started with Avtar International selling 100 hours of multi-engine time in CE-402s for $8,750 with the assurance from the Miami Flight Standard District Office that this time was loggable. Avtar International was started by Vic Johnson of New Jersey and Bill Veiga, a former Cessna Aircraft test pilot. Initially, most intern pilots were sent to GIA's chief competitor, Airways International as Gulfstream possessed only one aircraft: N200UV, a Cessna 402B. As Gulfstream continued to grow, they took the lion's share of Avtar pilots and the price was restructured to $8900 for 150 hours of flight time. Soon, a turbo prop program was added: $15,000 for 100 hours on a BE-C99; later increased to 200 hours and then 300 hours. Simultaneously, Avtar offered a heavy turbo prop program with Airways on their SD3-330 for $16,000. This program ended with the demise of Airways International and was only briefly restored with Gulfstream's own SD3-360s; a program that sold for $39,500 for 500 hours. The status of the CE402 F/Os was always the most ambiguous. Non-functioning autopilots made SICs a requirement but they were left behind (bumped) if passenger loads or weight & balance considerations dictated [1]. From their outstation locations they were expected to jumpseat home on GIA or other carriers, if necessary, because no return tickets were provided. For these reasons, and the fact that the company was founded and run by strike breakers from the very acrimonious Eastern Air Lines Strike of the late eighties, a few professional pilots refuse to fly on GIA as a passenger though they frequently jumpseat [2]. After complaints of jumpseating abuse by the interning First Officers from pilots at Major Carriers, Gulfstream, to its credit, made this a punishable activity for pilots not considered employed. Interning pilots were issued unique ID badges stamped in bold red "Jumpseat NA." Equally controversial, was the practice of using foreign nationals on student or tourist visas (including citizens of the People's Republic of China). These crewmembers were also recruited by Avtar Int'l which operated until 1997 when Gulfstream took over the practice with a sister company: The Gulfstream Training Academy. Post 9/11, many of these programs have been cleaned up and no international First Officers have been deported or detained by U.S. Customs since. Pilots who have interned with GIA have been hired by many other airlines, including all Major Airlines. Most have not brought any negatives to their new employers, although they have been among the crews of prominent crashes[3]. See also Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701, Comair Flight 5191 and Colgan Air Flight 3407 . Gulfstream itself has never had a fatal accident.

In 2009 U.S. Congress investigators and the Federal Aviation Administration accused Gulfstream of falsifying flight time records, making crews fly longer hours than allowed by law [4], and providing below standard aircraft maintenance. Capt. Thomas L. Cooper forbade the photocopying of aircraft logbooks done by some pilots to corroborate the times they logged in their personal logbooks.

Historically, pilots were paid "segment hours." So called, "segment hours" were based on ideal enroute times as opposed to block times and have been suspected of being part of an inducement for under reporting. Logging of true block hours (actual enroute times plus taxi time) could be detrimental to pilot pay. Whereas, most carriers pay pilots based on block time, since it is what FAA flight time limits are based on, GIA did not. An incentive existed to under report block time by keeping it as close to segment time as possible thereby permitting pilots to get paid for the most segment hours in a week, a month, and a year. Delays that increased block times not only reduced the crewmember's utility to GIA but also limited his pay. This under reporting was most relevant to captains. First Officers were not remunerated until 1995 when a majority of the turboprop co-pilots on the virtual seniority list with U.S. Passports or Green Cards began to be paid $8 per segment hour. Foreign copilots, who were not compensated and merely wished to return to their home countries with as much multi engine turbine time in as few months as possible, had little incentive to abide by FAA flight time limits.

In July 1997, the airline's entire fleet of Shorts 360-300s were repossessed by the leasing company due, in part, to maintenance irregularities that included the welding of hydraulic lines according to USA Today. Gulfstream faces a civil penalty of $1.3 million U.S. dollars according to USA Today. Gulfstream's affiliated Gulstream Flight Academy the successor to Avtar went into scrutiny since Marvin Renslow, the pilot of Colgan Air Flight 3407, trained there.[3] This is ironic because despite its status as a mere stepping stone in the minds of most pilot employees, the company was able to keep whistle blowing in check through selective disclosure of training documents mandated by the Pilot Record Improvement Act of 1996 (PRIA). PRIA came about in reaction to the crash of an American Eagle Jetstream piloted by a captain with a history of difficulties at prior airlines. It has been criticized because much of the information is subjective and the pilot waives his right to sue his former and current employers when he seeks employment with other FAR part 121 operators. Furthermore, a prospective employer is merely required to request and receive the PRIA material prior to hiring a pilot. No consideration of the material is required and the law does not apply if the applicant's former employer is the military or a foreign operator.

Steve you are part of the problem, your ego is part of the problem. Can't believe steve the "professional" is actually suggesting there are no good civilian pilots. Let me enlighten you Steve. A 10 year or so commitment wiith the military is not for everyone and military flying isn't appealing to everyone. Your attitudes appalling. Where did you develop your ego? The fact that you're bashing pilots for taking the civilian route is arrogant. There are plenty of mainline pilots who started civilian and a lot of them have a much more professional attitude than you and are no less talented. I agree completely that we dont need 500 hour guys getting hired, it should be 1,000 minimum. And I trust the 20-30yo pilot more than the old 50+yo who gets tired quicker and will develop more sicknesses with time.

On a last note Steve. Flight instructors (both military and civilian) make the best pilots. Get off your high horse fella.

Re-reguation anyone? Sorry you would lose your 10 dollar round trip ticket, but in exchange you would have a more professional crew. De-reg was OK for telephones, but for airplanes?

CNN is a little late on this story! There are hundreds of these schools all over the country, and they have been operating for years!

To fly in the Charter part 135 Rules there is a requirment for a minimum Flight Hours regardless of how you train, Why not have the same For 121 scheduled air carriers

Also These cookie cutter 200 hour pilots are taking jobs away from pilots who were, more qaulified, were flight instructors and have more time. Lets not give those jobs to underqaulified 90 day wonders while pilots who have paid there dues walk the streets

Gaining experience is all part of the industry: Pilots, Air Traffic Controllers and Mechanics. New co-pilots are fully qualified by FAA regulations and not flying by themselves, thet're under the supervision of a fully qualified and experienced captain. There is no problem with the system considering that in the prior 2-years before the Buffalo accident there was not a single fatality in the US Air Carrier industry. Please compare that to any other form of public transportation.

The Buffalo accident was simply a perfect storm of weather, aircraft, and crew scheduling (fatigue); besides, very likely we are blaming the pilots for something that was the aircraft manufacturers fault. in sombination with other issues that all contributed to the accident. It's always easiest to blame the dead pilots who can not defend them selves. Blaming the pilots saves major financial loss for the industry: The FAA for the certification of the airplane and; of course, the manufacturer.

So please, don't be so quick to follow the momentum created by industry to blame the pilots. Remember, the system has worked perfectly for many years and we have an incredible safety record for air transportation in this country.

If you know anything about flying or the airline industry, then you know that this story is pure garbage. Who ever reported it spent no time researching the industry. Most regional airlines and commuters take in pilots with well under 1000 hrs. to fly 50-100 pax jets. I personally was accepted into a TSA training class to fly ERJ-145s with only 300hrs before having my class cancelled. I have many of friends that went to college with me that started flying elsewhere in similar equipment with under 500hrs. Today, many flight schools and airlines are supplementing experience with knowledge and it continues to amaze me how much a "low time pilot" such as myself, knows. I have studied weather, aerodynamics, aircraft performance, aviation business, flight techniques, international and domestic navigation, etc. You would be hard pressed to find many 3000hr. pilots let alone 1500hr. pilots that knows what I know about flying, experience or not. Trust me, this does make me more professional than that goon commercial pilot CNN interviewed. GIA has never had a fatal crash! The training in the 1900 is completely different than the training for an RJ or a Q400. If those pilots weren't qualified to fly such equipment, then the blame rests with Collgan or Pinnacle to boot them out of their training classes. To be perfectly honest, 4 pilots out of 1700 did something wrong, come on guys, use your head, that's excellent training. My school, ERAU, didn't even have that kind of safety record for graduated pilots, and it's the world's leader in aviation education, more than 25 percent of all commercial pilots come from there. Anyone who thinks that ideas like GIA or jet transition courses are bad for the industry is just mad because they couldn't do it. Anyone who thinks that instructing for a 1000hrs builds real experience is wrong. Instructors have an 80 percent failure rate in airline training classes because they are used to chicken hawks and seminoles, not real planes sweet heart! These low hour programs are a perfect stepping stone to anyone who wants to truly accelerate their aviation career and obviously to those who can afford it, sorry if that offended you. Yeah, you can say I paid for my time, but at least Im not stuck in some po-dunk town flying a worn out 172, hoping the engine won't quit. If you want to comment me, feel free. I'm open to anything and believe me, I can dispute anything too!

I'm a major airline pilot, but I have flown with Gulfstream grads at a former airline. I can say that the training Gulfstream provides is inadequate, these men and women are thrust into air carrier operations without the necessary tools to act as a competent crew member. At least the Embry Riddle or UND grads had a solid foundation to build upon (although their cockiness and arrogance was sometimes hard to swallow). Gulfstream is truly a "mill." Pay your money, they train you only to pass the test. Next thing you know they're in the right seat at your airline, doubling your workload as a captain.

The problem with the Gulfstream program lies in their management. They have never focused on training, only the bottom line. Safety is not even an afterthought. Their previous VP of Flight Ops went on to become the Director of Training at Pinnacle... where the NTSB found serious training department deficiencies, after the death of two ignorant pilots. The same man subsequently became President of Colgan Air... and now we have another crash, more loss of life, and another apparent lack of a safety culture under his reign.

zach....you say you worked for GIA, and your comment was about a Beech 1900, but you spoke about the overhead storage being held together with duct tape. There is no overhead storage on a Beech 1900.

If you have something to say, go for it, but please there are enough inaccuracies in these posts to sink a ship. Don't add to them!

It is my belief, that Current GIA pilot and Steve, the golden zippered 2000+ trap master (that never saw the navy push commanders to soften a three down policy for your more than qualified recruits), get all you deserve in the civil aviation community. You've made more friends than you know along the way.

You two of all people should surely know that bush pilots that syphon gas from barrels, fr8dawgs, ex-linemen, fuelers, controllers and instructors all surviving the engine outs in countryfied C172 surely know nothing of skill and aviation. I for one am glad my needs for commercial aviation are in the most capable hands. I'm sure your immediate peers will have a wonder rotation flying with you tomorrow. You truely deserve what's comming.

[...] [...]

Forget about cheap fares. Gulstream charges $400 round trip from Ft. Lauderdale to Marsh Harbor – hardly cheap. This isn't a case of the public refusing to pay, especially to the Bahamas where there are too few flights with the "majors." What's really scary about Gulfstream is that people think they're paying to be on a "major" because it's branded with Continental. I fly Gulfstream regularly. There are very few alternatives and none that I consider any safer.

"In 2004, two pilots, both graduates of Gulfstream Academy, died near Jefferson City, Missouri after taking a Pinnacle Air plane on a joy ride up to 41,000 feet. They crashed after losing control of the plane. The National Transportation Safety Board blamed “the pilots’ unprofessional behavior” and “poor airmanship.”"

The Captain of Pinnacle 3701, the 2004 crash near Jefferson City, MO, was NOT a Gulfstream graduate. He was a graduate of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. He worked as a Flight Instructor there before being hired as a First Officer for Gulfstream Int'l Airlines. The Captain was a fairly experienced (6,000 plus hours) pilot and really should have known better. The First Officer was a graduate of the Gulfstream Academy and fairly low time (about 760 hours).

If you're going to write a new story, get your facts straight please! I got my information from doing a simple search for the NTSB Accident Report and reading the section on the pilot and copilot.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0701.pdf

Another example of how poorly the journalistic community has become. Try to sensationalize stories – regardless of the facts. A couple of things missing. (1) This is an FAA approved program, maybe one should be looking into that aspect. (2) The Gulfstream website states everyone entering their program must have a CMEL. That means their basic training has been learned elsewhere, and they have attained a Commercial license PRIOR to going to their program. (3) Gulfstream Airlines has never had a fatal accident. Maybe one should be looking at the training at the airlines these accidents have occured. (4) Pay and duty times should be looked at. When someone has to commute across country because the only way they can survive the pay is to live at home, there is a problem. How is anyone expected to live in a major metropolitan area on 17 – 22k? Could you do it? (5) While I agree wholeheartedly that military training is the best, it is incredibly impractical to think a civilian could ever get that type of training. Yours and my tax dollars donations are endless to pay for that military pilot, civilian pilots have to find a way to get it done without taxpayer funding. (6) You CAN"T teach judgement, some people are well equipped, othes are not – and it can't be taught. (7) Pay for training programs are the norm in Europe – does that mean we should never fly on a European airline? PFT was also prevelant in the US in the 90's, there are alot of PFT pilots out there flying for the majors (in addition to Gulfstream pilots) and they don't seem to be falling out of the sky. (8) You get what you pay for. Passengers will search for an hour to save 5 bucks on a ticket. That means every airline out there (regional AND major) is looking everywhere to cut costs. Raise the tickets, raise the pay, and you'll raise the experience on the flightdeck. (9) EVERY SINGLE PILOT IN THE HISTORY OF FLYING HAS STARTED WITH ZERO HOURS AND ZERO EXPERIENCE. You don't wake up one day and have 5,000 hours under your belt. (10) Degregulation has turned what was once a proud profession into what you see today. Pilots that work their a$$ off, study for thousands of hours, spend time instructing, humping cargo or whatever way to get their time (flight experience) up, to get to a job paying 20k says something about their dedication and desire to becoming a professional pilot. (11) Instructing isn't the beat all end all ticket to safety. There was a 1600 hour CFI on the Buffalo flight, and it didn't help. If one was to review how many accidents their were regarding instructors and students, I'm sure it will open alot of eyes.

Gulfstream sells the right seat (co-pilot) by contract. How is this legal?
It is a shame that airliners as big as 90 seaters are contract carriers for the majors. As has been asked for years "how low does the bar need to be lowered before people die?"

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Rob, you maybe the most intelligent person on here. And to G550, Im sorry if I offended you, I truly believe some of the better civilian pilots are bush pilots. But instructors, no. I have had my fair share of flame outs, single and duel engine failures, gear up landings and full electrical failures. Whenever I have had an instructor on board in an emergency situation, they freak out, lose their cool. Some people are naturally good pilots, some people aren't and some people just shouldn't be flying at all. I had 8 people start with me in my training class at GIA and 3 of us passed it. Again, if you don't know what you are talking about, please shut up. I'm sure there are a lot of experienced pilots on this site now and I'm sure most you could probably fly circles around me because of your experience. For the most part, I do know what I am talking about and I do have a strong knowledge of aviation, probably stronger than most. No offense, there is a big difference between flying 172 and a 1900 and GIA does weed out the people that can't make up for that difference. If you guys want to see 1000hr plus pilots at commuters and regionals, then pay them what they deserve, otherwise, leave the people who are trying to get started alone. If you were in our shoes, in this economy, after paying $145,000 for flight school and college, no way to pay back loans, no chance of getting a real job for years, always being promised that you will have a job when you are done, what would you do? Flight instructors can't even find students anymore, so thats out of the picture. This economy is tough on everyone, yes, but extremely tough on people right out of college and even tougher on the airline industry. GIA kept me flying, I'm getting good experience, trust me, when is the last time you, G550, flew a 172 in IFR through storms to the the bahamas in a non rdr environment at FL200, oh, never, or are you sitting plush in a G550 at FL510 over the weather. Regardless, its good experience and you have to learn quickly in this environment. Look, the pilots here are pretty good, especially to have to deal with GIA maintenance, rampies, schedulers who change our hours in the books, and perhaps some of the worst looking airplanes I've had the pleasure of flying. I can't account for what happens to a man once he becomes an FO or a Capt flying a jet with over 5000hrs at another company. Maybe they became complacent or lazy, but that is not something you can be at GIA with the equipment we fly. The FAA has it in for us and other people do as well, thats why you hear so many stories about us, but again, NO FATAL ACCIDENTS, and if you want to see a video of good GIA pilots, look up the wheels up landing we did in DuBois in December and tell me you could have done better.

Yeah... put a CFI on the right seat of a 1900, it'll be like having the captain fly by himself.

Put them to fly 135 single pilot... they're afraid of clouds and can't navigate without GPS. Now... give us a "HIGH TIME" pilot and they're untrainable, they've picked more bad habits than paychecks at their previous jobs.

For those whom think that Gulfsteam sells the right seat as a contract... you might want to refrain from making comments like those, what it is.... it's a training contract, if you don't make it through training you're not flying the line, plain and simple.

I understand the anger it creates with some HIGH TIME pilots out there, they claim to be better qualified than the Gulfstream graduates, they also claim that Gulfstream pilots have bad airmanship. This whole situation really boils down to pilots whom are really bitter about the whole industry, pilots whom are not cut to be airline pilots, pilots who want to be home nightly and pilots who converted our profession into nothing more than a JOB.

I'm a pilot, and I seem to remember a crash where the crew was recorded on the black box talking about one of there escapades the night before with a flight attendant instead of following the checklist and forgot to put the flaps in take off position and crashed into the parking lot. One in MSP haveing a few drinks before takeoff. Landing at the wrong airport. All Military trained!!!! A good civ. pilot is as good as a military pilot and vice versa a bad pilot is a bad pilot where ever they came from. I've flown with both.

If you want to statistically compare all civilian pilots to all military pilots accidents (non-combat) I think you will find you are wrong numbers wise. That being said, I do agree with that if they are bad they are bad, period, you are just less likely to find an undisciplined pilot who has gone through all that. However, the selection process for the services alone is rigorous, not to mention the training once you finally get accepted. Then the major airlines used to do astronaut mental and physical examinations in the 70's and early 80's.
About 10% of those selected were weeded out in new hire 727 training alone in those days. First upgrade to FO wacked another 1-2%. First upgrade to Captain wacked a few more. I flew little airplanes in high school before volunteering for Vietnam, then both civilian flight instructor, military IP, civilian corporate flying, then airline FE, FO, CA DC-10, B-727, B-737, and FK-100 with a few emergencies all successfull, and over 20,000 flight hours.

Factually, the crash referred to above is the XX DC-9 at Detroit and the primary cause of that was Human Factors (intense argument), contributed to by the fact that the company merged two pilot seniority lists and paid them differently, and then the union favored one over the other, causing serious problems in hundreds of cockpits in their system, but that was the only one to result in an accident. Granted, those guys should never have allowed that to effect their performance, and they paid with their lives and and those of their passengers for their mistakes. The 'escapades' you refer to was the same carrier having a known "problem child" and involved no accident, thankfully, but the faa allowed the flight to destination and only then intervened! If it was so dangerous they should have not allowed the flight, so they put those passengers and that airplane 'at risk' also, and are contributarily negligent.

Current GIA Pilot,

"after paying $145,000 for flight school and college, no way to pay back loans, no chance of getting a real job for years, always being promised that you will have a job when you are done, what would you do? Flight instructors can’t even find students anymore, so thats out of the picture. This economy is tough on everyone, yes, but extremely tough on people right out of college and even tougher on the airline industry. GIA kept me flying, I’m getting good experience, trust me, when is the last time you, G550, flew a 172 in IFR through storms to the the bahamas in a non rdr environment at FL200, oh, never,...."

FYI, the reason some may believe you to be poorly educated as a GIA roster member is evident in those you address. You did, and continue to offend me and probably most of those able to give you a better position in the future. Your comments continue to prove you missed something in your 145,000 student training/debt. I'll start with your charachter at the expense of mine in a public forum with a frivolous response that, for free, may shed some light on why you may benefit by observation, not participation.

My carreer started in South Florida, like yours, on the East coast. From Sebastian to Pompano, after many hours instructing from tail wheel to basic aerobatics. I flew, at the peak, for 3 135 certificates out of two FSDO's and 2 Part 91 airplanes concurrently, schedule permitting. I filled out my duty/flight times for all certificates in each pilot record, honestly. All to the tune of 25/hr or 150/day turbine.

You assume I have never walked in your shoes flying a 1900 in the Bahamas. You are correct about the 1900. You are wrong about the Bahamas. I have been to each of the hard top strips, and one sand top in the Bahamas. Walkers Cay in a BE30 probably the worst fit. On top of my duties as PIC, I did the paper work, manifest, load sheet, gen decs, arrival reports, immigration decs to name a few. Fronted my own cash for fees and flew without WEATHER radar (Miami ZTC radar is good down to 7000 MSL [ceiling of Bahamian airspace]). Unlike your few destinations, I was privilaged to see them all and know the people and stories I delivered.

For that privilage, I lived in my car, pilot lounges and rented rooms when it was good. I wished I had 145k in the bank. When I was beginning, GIA was pay by the hour of power, so were the other similar "turbine transition/FO programs" of the day at Comair, ACA, Trans-states, Richardson, Colgan, and so on. What I learned in my baptism by fire was patients, people skills, humility and the confidence in my abilities to satisfy those of whom trusted me with their aircraft and clients.

Your are right about a second thing. The economy and aviation are as tough as I've seen since the mid 80's [I'm not that old]. As for the rest, my last trip IFR in a 172 was to EHAM from KTEB for a ferry flight in FEB 09 (ice/North Atlantic, etc.). I am a full time contract pilot trying making my way on wages far below the boom of JAN 08.

The point, what is your aviation dream worth and when should you listen, not talk. Wanting to fly for an airline so bad you will pay is understandable. But simply paying your way does not build the charachter and neccessary experience away from the airplane that will make you a bird of the feather. I know you want to stick up for the pirates that own and operate GIA, its your job and I can respect the committment. I can not condone assumptions about my career and integrity. There is one lesson I learned quickly: If you are an a.. on the east coast your are an a.. on the west coast and they are not far apart. Not just for Florida, but nation wide.

Pilots come in all shapes, sizes, back grounds and sexs with different levels of skill. Mine may not be as good as yours but I do enjoy the fruit of my labor and work at it daily.

[...] written article. Seems to be the topic which is coming up more often CNN Similar article on US training However, it does still touch on the point that there are problems with the training establishments [...]

I see that a lot of people keep saying that its because the American people are to cheap to pay fairs and so thats what they get. We are forgetting that there are pilots out there who are more than qualified and are still getting payed the same to start as these Gulfsteam pilots(term used loosely). This company has just found a way to make revenue on top of what they make operating as an airline. Its an airline and flight instruction all roiled into one flight. I'm an experienced flight instructor who has payed his dues buy giving back to the system and earning experience the long and hard way but still has to compete with these knuckle heads. Which buy the way keep the starting pay real nice and low. Thanks for taking just anything guys. Also stop comparing Airforce training to the Gulfsteam training. the Airforce isn't carrying 50 civilians around for money and there training is at least a year long and very intensive with many checks along the way. Also at any step you fall behind or screw up your out.

Mr. Propilot CFI:

I'm appalled about the quality of your writing taking into consideration you claim to be a professional pilot.

I'd suggest you keep on instructing, at least you can choose your own schedule, choose who you'd fly with, avoid clouds and not having to worry about reporting an hour prior to departure.

You claim you've paid your dues... Let me tell you something mister... A lot of those Gulfstream International Airline Pilots have paid their dues, and some of us still keep on paying our dues no matter how far we've come along in this industry that has been more than tarnished... has been toiled by greedy management, senseless union grievances and a very corrupt FAA. That's not including the harsh criticism the general public generates and the so often NAIVE, IMMATURE, SENTIMENTAL, GAYISH, UNFOUNDED, GENERALIZED, BIASED and TEARFUL comments CFI's post on pprune, flightinfo, airlinepilotcentral and here at CNN.

Just so that you know... CFI's make up the highest washout ratio at GULFSTREAM, plainly they don't adapt as easy, they've been logging flight time from the right seat and been told too many war stories by OL'Leroy who soloed in a Cub sometime before VORs even existed.

Where I fly... We washout CFI's during training, if they make it through training likely during IOE we make them realize they're not cut for the job when they get lost in a small cross country flight (I mean... my scientific calculator that I bought 3 months ago has more cross country time than some of this SCOTTY 250 CFI'S), and the look they give you when they have to fly a DME arc... The look someone gives a cashier when they're short a couple of bucks at the drive thru.

Remember... discipline is taught at Gulfstream, however... Integrity is something you can't teach a pilot, that's a trait he was raised with and is up to that pilot to carry it on, no matter where he goes.

it'z very usefull information. but i expect more details..
Mical