Ex-insider: Harsh interrogation tactics were a mistake

I guess one could say, defending or looking for ways to defend the safety of our American people is a mistake. Criminals can be sloppy in the way they kill people but the police and other law enforcement agency must be almost squeeky clean. Bad Precedent!!!

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Of course there are other ways to interrogate someone – and no one is immediately sujected to waterboarding. period. Those who are or were waterboarded only underwent such treatment AFTER other methods (presumably similar to those that work on others – as referenced above), failed to obtain info.

We will never be a civilized race of people until activities such as torture are no longer tolerated by society.

To TW Harris – no, it's a very good precedent.

More testimony by those involved that Dick Cheney lives in his own reality. I just wish that he would go away to the woods and shut up. He is the most dangerous man to America's safety.

Mr. Cheney should Shut the hell up!!

At the Least he is Guilty of Treason!!

Sadly if the U.S.A. thinks it has the right to do what it wants when it wants & how it wants then you have become who you are fighting!!
You are the Enemy!

That would be Very Sad for such a Great Nation!

We cannot claim to be the beacon of freedom and hope to the world, when we have a dark side to our national character. The world rejects torture.

Unfortunately there are religious zealots who use our government and military as a tool of their religious agenda. They need to be stopped.

When we stopp to these levels, we lose the qualities that make us great. We were more than happy to rail against other countries during the cold war for their so-called barbarism, but then more than happy to embrace that same barbarism when it's in our interests?

Put another way, the rational offered says that 'we did what we did because we thought it would work, and we couldnt find a better way to do it – even if it was wrong." That very same reasoning could be used to describe suicide bombers in the middle east, or the death camps in nazi germany.

i am sickened by the actions of people who claim to represent the country i love.

Zelikow: writes, "the issue is — were there other ways of getting the information that would have been as or more effective without having to subject them to physical abuse?"

This implies that there were no other techniques used before water-boarding. I can't imagine anyone going strait to water boarding. This is an assumption that I wish Cheney or the CIA would answer.

Therefore, if other cuddly techniques were tried and failed, then this assumption (that many are making) would be telling.

While I would not want to voluntarily experience water boarding myself...many in the armed forces have been water boarded as part of their training, I do not believe that water boarding reaches the definition of torture.

CNN needs to stop softening what was done by using phrases like "harsh interrogation tactics." It was torture, it was abuse, it was a violation of U.S. law and the Geneva Conventions, people died from those acts, they were systematic acts, they were known at the top, they were authorized at the top. AND, the leadership of both the Democratic and Republican parties were aware of this and either signed off or looked the other way. I have no confidence in either of these Parties to do what needs to be done: investigate, charge, and prosecute those who broke the law and were responsible for acts of torture. But they can be forced by public pressure to do the right thing. When CNN uses phrases like "harsh interrogation tactics" they make that harder. Shame.

TW Harris:

You said it correctly: "criminals can be sloppy". We, as in America, are not "criminals". That's why we don't torture or terrorize. We are expected to set the bar, we are above that.

If you think it's okay for America to do this, then we're just the same as the terrorists who do this to us.

If the police/government use the same tactics as criminals then what's the difference between the two groups? It's a great precedent. And get off your high horse about "defending our safety". Come to NYC where I live for a day and you'll realize that we're no "safer" now than 8 years ago.

TW, so you're saying that abusing someone is ok if it's done in the name of defending our country? That's total BS, we need to set the standard on torture and show the world that we can defend ourselves and our interests without resorting to the nasty and inhumane. I for one think the US is better than that.

It's about time that the US start leading by example. You can't say you stand for peace and democracy when you're using physical torture against people suspected of terrorist acts.

Don't be a fool. 'Criminals' aren't the ones to be afraid of. Yes the government has to be squeaky clean because they aren't criminals, they have to uphold human rights and civil liberties because if they don't, no one will. I'm amazed at how many adult Americans are willing to let the government do anything to protect us from these "criminals." Get real the crime rate has been dropping for over a decade, and yet our laws are getting more and more repressive. Go read a book. First try On Liberty by John Stuart Mill, next try a history book so you can see what our revolutionary founder died for. Always remember that one of the smartest men ever, and a founding father of our nation said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Thats where we are, so get ready for a world were neither exists.

Sure, now it was a mistake. It wasn't a mistake when it happened. The politics of the nation changed. The national sense of fear after 9/11/01 has all but been forgotten. Now it is time to CYA.

Stop being such pansys and stop living in fear. As they say in NH, Live Free or Die. There is no reason to change our laws and ideals because of fear. That is the real precedent to fear.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Mr. Harris

No, Harris, it's not.

We do not torture. Period.

"Enhanced interrogation methods" are ineffective anyway. CNN did a few stories on their effectiveness and it makes a lot of sense.

If you're an Alpha and have been raised your entire life to think that Betas are sub-human, nasty creatures and a Beta captures you and tortures you for information, are you going to talk? Probably not, because you realize that everything you have heard about them is true. It might not ACTUALLY be, but you will now think it to be true for the rest of your life.

However, if you get captured by the Betas and realize that they aren't the monsters you thought them to be, you might begin to open up to them and trust them more, now that you realize that Alphas aren't perfect either.

What this tells me is what many of us have long suspected. Bush and his advisors completely freaked out over 9-11, and over-reacted badly. They were just as scared and witless as Al Queda wanted them to be.
They were like the cops who beat every suspect nearly to death in a cop-killing investigation.

In this sense, Al Queda DID accomplish its goals.

Secret prisons, secret memos authorizing torture, abuse, hired "contractors" who conduct brutal torture sessions. The last eight years have been Orwellian to say the least. Sounds more like the third reich or stalinist USSR that the USA. Shine the light on these people–hold them accountable for their crimes. Cheney and Rumsfeld and Bush are shaking in their hobnailed boots –not because the photos will cause harm to the US. Of course people will become inflamed when they see the evidence of turture. Won't you? They are afraid of EVIDENCE being brought into the light of day that reveals them for who they are....

TW Harris:

Criminals get prosecuted in court for being "sloppy". Why are the politicians or elite going to walk away untouched from this? Absolutely ridiculous, and a crazy double standard. Karl Rove and "executive privilege"

TW, yes, our police and law endorcement need to be as clean and upright as possible. If we allow or endorse anything less, it is a slippery slope downward, where everyone begins to believe there is no line between right and wrong. The bad precedent is to start allowing/endorsing torture, because it makes us as moarlly bankrupt as the criminals, and if we allow it to go on for awhile, who's to stay where it needs to stop?

Yes, criminals use CRIMINAL tactics. That is what makes them criminals. Why is that so hard to understand?

If you want to live in a civilized country where your property and humanity can not be stripped away from you arbitrarily by the state, you have to make sure your state cannot do those things to anyone. You don't care about this because you have no compassion for people not like you. We swept up thousands of non-enemy, non-criminal Iraqis and Afghanis into this system, and even a few Americans, Canadians and Europeans who we tortured or extradited to be tortured. These people became our enemies. The families and friends of these people became our enemies. And our actual enemies got to say "See, America is no better than the tyrants you already know, and they have no respect for your lives because you are Muslim".

Hundreds if not thousands of American soldiers died because of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and all the other dark places we tortured people. These tactics made us less safe.

I cant believe what this country does, Clinton was in trouble for sexual acts in the white house. Bush starts a war with thousands of our soldiers killed and 100's of thousands of Iraq's killed. Bush and Cheney authorized everything.. Clinton only screwed 1 person. bush screwed the whole world. Can we get this right? Can we hold people accountable?

Isn't that precisely what differentiates a criminal from a law official?

This nice thing about comments is, any fool can write one (self and previous post included.) First, TW Harris, you don't understand what 'precedent' means. Second, society is built upon rules and civil conduct. One cannot safeguard ethics (safety of society) by prolific unethical conduct (torture). full stop. Third, remember, almost half the folks in this country are of below average intelligence and they are more likely to write comments here.

Thank you everybody! While I was sitting here trying to form an eloquent response to TW Harris you all trumped me! And I'm happy to see that it isn't just women speaking out against torture.

What's important is comparison to history. How is what we do to people different from obvious examples of abuse such as Nazi Germany, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.

If there are similarities then the action is wrong, no matter the result (unless you believe those dictatorships were right in their methods).

We're better than that but the discussion needs to be had rather than insults and dismissals from both camps – it seems to always boil down to traitor vs. nazi.

We as a moral country should interrogate morally. I guess if you are immoral you can get your Attorney General's opinion to back you up and interrogate as you please using any methods available. Hark to the Dark Ages!

The argument that we gained info is bogus. I'm sure Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, the VC, and the Japanese gained info when they tortured our boys and others. It doesn't justify it. You can't say you are the beacon of freedom for the rest of the world to follow when you act like the Evil regimes above. Cheney has weakened our country and made us less great because of these actions. In WW2, we treated the Germans and Japenese humanely while they used torture, yet good prevailed.

It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind. -Voltaire

If, during the course of fighting those who would do harm to our nation, we lose sight of who we are and what we stand for, our enemies will have already defeated us, even if we kill every last one of them. Should we forfeit our honor and integrity for some immediate security? If we do so that security will indeed be fleeting. Should we sacrifice our position as a moral leader for the rest of the world? If we do so, the rest of the world will no longer follow us. Each and every one of us should be ashamed, deeply ashamed, that we did not do more to put a stop to this once we learned of it. That is not who we are or what we stand for.

If you study history, and I know that a lot of our schools have been somewhat lax in actually teaching it lately, you will see that the founders of this country fought in large part against this very behavior and our constitution is shaped to prevent it from being allowed. Claiming that a human being does not have rights to those protections is a reprehensible cop-out. The moment you make any human less than human, you can easily make any other human less than human as well.

Shame on all of us for allowing this to happen. Let us strive to make sure that it can not happen again.

and eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind

Looking backwards it's easy to suggest that there was alternatives available. But when a key terrorist's only answer to your questions regarding future attacks is "just wait, your time is coming" it's very easy to see why this was done. I'm pretty sure that if there had been another attack on US soil after 9-11 as was expected by all, then we would be asking a very different question today and that question might be why didn't we use whatever methods it would take to get the information to stop another attack.

We dropped two atmoic bombs on Japan and fire bombed German cities during WW II. These looking back could be classified as war crimes under today's standards but at the time they saved US lives by hastening the end of the War and were therefore justified.

Looking back with rose colored glasses is easy and cheap and in this case not required.

Bush and Pelosi knew what they were doing and what they thought was best in the hype of post 911. After analysis I'm sure the Monday-morning quarterbacks will say something else may have worked better. Maybe yes, Maybe No. But its worth exploring rather then the grandstanding and lying to cover their tracks. Apoligizing to terrorist is never justified though nor is trying to implicate that the US caused the terrorist to attack.

"Those who would trade essential freedoms for a little bit of security deserve neither." B. Franklin

The U.S. has been a country that has stood up against the use of torture in many regimes throughout the world. The basic framework of our country is all people deserve basic freedoms and rights. If you start taking those freedoms and rights from some people, it will only be a matter of time until those rights are stripped from all people. A catholic priest in Nazi Germany once stated that they stood by as persecution spread from group to group until finally when they started to be persecuted, there was no one left to help defend them. That is why it is important to continue to uphold the vision of our forefathers. I was in the military and your life, my life and the life of many, many others is not worth the cost of the principals of this country.
We have to climb back up to be the shining light we were, but we are far better projected by people looking at the United States as a beacon of hope for their own freedom than any security apparatus can ever make us.

With regards to Zelikow's statement about "mistakes and flawed judgements", he then asks the retorical question "we need to understand how this happened." It happened because the people in charge don't know what they are doing most of the time. The war decisions were bad, the economic decisions were bad, the legal decisions were bad, etc, etc, etc. At least this guy is honest when he say that Cheney is being nothing but misleading with his recent statements. Can't we get some people in office who at least appear to know what they are doing?? Maybe that is just asking too much.

More like bad President. The whole point of being 'the good guys' is that we aren't 'the bad guys' and therefore don't do the horrible things, like torture, that make them 'the bad guys.' When we lose sight of that then we lose any right to claim moral superiority.

Zelikow makes a perfect point in mentioning that the prisoners captured could have yielded the same information without torture. But we'll never know, because a decision was made to debase the integrity of our intelligence staff and the integrity of our country by resorting to torture.

And I could be wrong, but isn't torture of criminals, war criminals or otherwise, something that qualifies as a crime against humanity? Or are we just going to forget the nuremburg trials that we were so proud of helping to organize for some other little war a few decades back?

We as Americans enjoy a special kind of freedom, we can pretty much say what we want about our government, travel anywhere with in our borders with out constant harassment. Now we have changed leaders and all of a sudden Americans are horrified at the tactics our military used to keep us this way. Did the terrorists that attacked us on 9 11 apologize to the families who suffered the loss of their love ones: NO, Did they look at their policies and say we were wrong in that action: Hell No, They probably threw a party and notched their belts for all the innocents that were killed. I am so sick and tired of all these fake Americans, if you do not enjoy the freedom given to you and protected by our military, then get the hell out of my country! I say find a terrorist, torture the heck out of them any way you can, because believe me, that terrorist is not thinking of your rights when they place a bomb on a crowed subway, or fly a 747 into an office building. If they don't care about my life why should I care about theirs! Fake Americans Make Me Sick!

There is historical precedent for this type of over reaction. In 1942 the Nisei ( Japanese Americans ) were interred during WW II.
In the aftermath of a calamity, with the 'country' screaming for a plan, Congress panics and you get something like this.
It took over 40 years for 'us' to admit we were wrong. In 1988, U.S. President Ronald Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which provided for a formal apology and payments of $20,000 for each survivor.
TW, more than 656,000 service members have died protecting our Constitution and country. That 'bad precedent' you refer to is called the Bill of Rights.

To Roger in Indie: Hate to tell you but Water boarding has not been deemd torture. It is a harsh interigation method. Another wonderful note you fail to SEE is that the people being interogated DO NOT FALL UNDER the Geneva Convention. Read, learn it, love it. They are not uniformed military, therefore they are not considered POWs. Sorry those are the rules you want us to live by, you might want to learn them.

Also Mr. Zelikow never answers the questions straight up. He twists and turns words. Asks for the true definition of "is" really.
"Well, it’s actually highly misleading. Because, of course, if you have the highest value al Qaeda captives in the world for years, anything you get from them is going to be of some use. And a lot of valuable information was obtained. The issue isn’t did we get valuable information from these people. The issue is — were there other ways of getting the information that would have been as or more effective without having to subject them to physical abuse? In other words, it’s a comparative evaluation. So when you just say well did we get good information reports from these people and then you get in an argument about that, that’s a sucker’s game. The real issue is to do the comparison and actually a lot of information was available at the time to do an honest comparison that wasn’t used and since then, for example, we’ve been fighting al Qaeda in Iraq for years using methods that comply with international standards in a very effective fight." It's ineffective b/c we got information that was valuable? You know that new paint on your house is ineffective b/c it stops the water from seeping into the wood siding, I mean look at how that water beads up!!!!

In response to the above comment by TW Harris. Yes, law enforcement MUST be squeeky clean. Otherwise they are no better than the "criminals" you mention.

Standing up for human dignity, the rule of law, and democratic principles means we must treat any detainee the way we would want our own service men and women to be treated. The truly "bad precedent" is set when we abandon the moral high ground for "the ends justify the means".

A short trip through history shows that every time that motto is invoked, atrocities follow shortly in its wake. Do we really have such a short memory?

... A bad precedent, is one which is defined by dictators, extremists, and terrorists. To follow the practices of the Khmer Rouge, or the Spanish inquisition, is to follow a 'Bad Precedent'... TW Harris.

To suggest that we need law enforcement to bend the rules, is to suggest that the rules are established to be bent. We cannot permit this when we are discussing the fundamental principles of our democracy – Life, Liberty, and Justice. If we feel that we are justified to submit 'terrorists' to inhuman treatment, then we rely on our leaders to determine when justification is present, and when someone is a potential 'terrorist' – Without any legal definition of those terms!!!

What principles will protect American citizens from having their civil liberties compromised? Certainly not when we view all principles as being flexible.

I'm glad that someone is making Pelosi face up to what she actually did, which was to condone torture. It shouldn't matter if she was told directly or through an aide; the point is she knew and now she's trying to backpedal through the use of semantics. I expect that the parsing of the word "know" will be equal to that of the word "is".

I'm a Democrat but I'm not a Pelosi fan. She's extremely annoying and does the party more harm than good. She needs to step down.

TW Harris: Yes, because it's perfectly acceptable for the government to stoop to the level of common thugs and criminals to achieve its goals, eh? Moron.

The government needs to be held to a higher standard than the criminal sector.

"Hundreds if not thousands of American soldiers died because of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and all the other dark places we tortured people. These tactics made us less safe."

Obviously, mysticdog is right. When you piss off a billion people for no good reason, it comes back at you.

Also, Cheney won't shut up about how he wiped his ass with the Constitution. He apparently wants a trial. Let's give it to him.

this is the guy we can thank, in part, for the massively inept 911 commission. if he's saying this there has to be a strange motive behind it.

TW Harris says that criminals can use sloppy techniques but not us and that is a bad precedent. That is exactly the case, cause we are the GOOD guys. It is HARD to be the GOOD guys and taking the easy way out and resorting to such techniques makes us no better than the criminals.

I think you missed the guy's whole point. There are other alternatives which are just as effective if not more so, in protecting the nation.

Given the luxury of time, by all means go with the asking nicely and hoping they slip up and talk. But given an impending situation affecting the lives of all these bleeding hearts, lets see how quickly they ask "where was the information that could have saved my loved ones" when something happens we could have prevented with alittle water. They'll be the first ones screaming for government investigations about why the attack wasn't stopped and why the government failed.

MYSTIC: What a stupid statement! Have you ever heard of Right of Eminent Domain? Try understanding that before you compare interrogators to common criminals or thug like governments! The only thing that makes us less safe is caring more about the amount of collateral damage than going in and winning the war! We are too worried about the global perception of us!

If America can not be defended without destroying the constitution and the democratic ideals of democracy and individual human dignity, without obliterating due process and resorting to torture, then there is nothing left worth defending. The more than one quarter of a million American soldiers who died in WWII fighting fascism did not die so that the US could become a fascist nation too. This Bush/Cheney episode is a disgrace to the US and makes a mockery of those who have died fighting for American democracy.

Some Americans have become so cowardly they are not willing to risk death to defend America (i.e. the US Constitution), but they are willing to torture people to defend themselves. Whatever happened to , "Give me liberty or give me death"? It has been replaced with , "screw the constitution (i.e. America) but keep me safe".

Jon Snow: Say WHAT?!?!?!? Have you even researched the Alphas? The Alphas want us dead, IRREGARDLESS of whether or not we "torture" them. They HATE that we have freedoms and do not bow before their almighty Allah. Unless you are willing to convert to their ways, there is NO WAY the Alphas will accept the Betas. (Funny also how you refer to the terrorists as Alphas and Americans as Betas, Fraud (I mean Freud) would have a field day with that).

We are dealing with terrorists from various countries, not soldiers from a specific country, and therefore not subject to Geneva Convention or the Army Field Manual. These terrorists have no laws, no values outside their misguided religious fervor, and do not care if they themselves die, as long as they can kill hundreds/thousands/millions of Americans, and achieve their 72 virgins. When dealing with such zealots, which is more important? We cannot fight fair when the opposition is obviously not following the same rules.

We need our undercover intelligence people (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc.) to protect us – even if this involves doing things that we normally would not do, and would be abhorrent to civilized society. This is called Survival (of the U.S). If we do not do some of these things that would otherwise be repugnant, I am afraid that our country will not survive.

Playing by the rules versus an enemy that have no rules .... You can argue all you want, but if a loved one is held captive and is being tortured and will be killed very soon, and you have a chance to save that person by getting information out of a terrorist, what would you do? After examining my own conscience, I know what I would do. What YOU would do is up to your own conscience and whether or not you would stand there, wring your hands helplessly, and spout all those wonderful things about abiding by the rules, going to liberal judges asking what to do, negotiating for days, and pleading with the captors to release the loved one – yeah, that would work real well.

For me, I would put safety ahead of everything else – without it, we will not have a country left!

Read this book and try to come to your own conclusions. Amazing how much information has still not come out involving these issues.

The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned Into a War on American Ideals By: Jane Mayer

They still try to rewrite history! It is nice that Zelikow wants to clear his conscious but he still walks the tightrope of half truths and limited responsibility. I am so sick of people trying to shift the blame to Nancy Pelosi when they try to equate the responsibility of the Democrats in Congress to that of the Administration. Spreading the responsibility as a collective failure is a conveniant alternative to reality. Imagine how Fox news and the rest of the media would have characterized Pelosi had she questioned the morality/legality of enhanced interrogation. I wonder if Cheney would have accused her of threatening the safety of the American people. The responsibilty for this fiasco lies squarely on the shoulders of the architects of this policy. Some accountability should also be had by those who continously mischaracterized the facts, suppressed the truth from coming out and those who intimidated those who tried to do the right thing. Members of Congress could not discuss the 'National Security' meetings and I remember at the time that the expressed vailed criticism of the program to the extent that they could do so legally. This was all part of the deliberate game the Administration played to manipulate and intimidate those that tried to uphold the rule of law. The whole truth is there, waiting to be uncovered and it needs to be. Whether or not this happens will help to determine what kind of country we hope to be in the future.

I find the naiveté of those who think we haven't been torching our enemies for information under ALL administrations for the past 200+ years humorous. This wasn't something new that the Bush Administration came up with. The only difference these days is that we don't leave marks and we allow the subjects to live. Seriously, use your brains people.

So what are the alternatives, asking nicely? Tickling? It's laughable to hear people say these techniques don't work.

This guy is a moron...how easy is to come back after fact and say well we should have handed to the running back before we decided to throw a pass on that play. The running play may have scored but we'll never know...moron

To TW Harris:

You are wrong, wrong and wrong. Of course our public servants and military personel need to be almost squeaky clean. (I didn't use quotes because you don't know how to spell.) We need to set examples of how civilized people should deal with criminals and enemies when they have been taken inrto custody or captured. If we do not treat them properly then we are no better than the Nazis. Therefore, you are either wrong or you are a Nazi, take your pick.

Steffan hits to the core of the problem. This is not a law enforcement issue people! This is unregulated war executed by people working for our eradication and unconcerned about beheading people on video for the world to see. Also, the last time I checked it was called the Constitution of the United States not the world constitution and I didn't spend 20-years of my life protecting it so terrorists could get a fair shake while my own countrymen died at their hands.

Hey Walleye..you wrote do unto others as they would do unto you...let's see that' means non whites can enslave you???? Genocide relating to the native Americans...What about bombing a two major cities the way the US government did in WW2...and if you were even slightly educated or not to strung out when you were in college you would have realized that they war was done and the bombing was to show Moscow what the US had...Steal all you natuirla resources as you did to most African and SOuth Americans nations....Enslaving a whole race of people for 400-500 years...

So before you speak know the history...it's only a littel flowery caues it's written by the enslavers...the colonizers...the slave masters....and the all have one thing in common

ANGLO SAXONS

I find how we decided that this is ok troubling. But most of all I think some of this was done out of rage and vengence. I mean really- if you didn't get the information you wanted the first 50 times you waterboarded someone what makes you think doing it another 100 times will work. There is no rational reason to continue this.

Regarding Dick Cheney- he's one of the biggest pieces of garbage on the planet. This guy has pretended to want to keep the nation safe- then why did he torture people for false intelligence that they knew was false- then rush us into an unjust and needless war in Iraq. Because that was his plan from day 1. Torture does not work or we would not have been in Iraq. Iraq did not make the US safer. If you think so ask the families of the 4000 troops that were killed there. Dick Cheney is a criminal.

America really needs to ask itself this question. The sword cuts both ways. How did America want its soldiers treated if they were captured in battle?

And I'm supposed to care about what happens to "highest value al Qaeda" captives, why? These are people that are proud, card-carrying members of an organization hell-bent on destroying us. What do people opposed to this type of interrogation think would happen if we didn't employ these methods? These members of al Qaeda would gradually come around to see that we are a humane nation and politely answer our questions (thereby blowing the whistle on their whole group)? And then what? We'd say "Thank you so much" and send them on their way? Wake up people.

These guys are going to be tried. It's inevitable.

Or we can send them to the Hague, if that's your pleasure.

Finally, a Bush official who goes on record saying that torturing prisoners was a mistake! I think these last 8 years will be looked upon as a dark time in our country's history, when we did things as a country that we have NEVER done in over 200 years of our history, including during the bloodiest wars this world has ever seen. At this point, it's not about which party is to blame, it's about ensuring that our highest ideals as a country, including habeus corpus and humane treatment, which truly make our country great, are never trampled on again for the sake of political expediency.

I agree, they should have been shot period! These are terrorists who blow themselves and other innocent people w/them, decapitate and other atrocities in the name of Islam. Enough!!!!!!!

Do we consider the people who killed Daniel Pearl and held his severed head up before cameras and bragged about it civilized? We should open every day playing the videos of those thugs flying those planes into the World Trade Center. We should also play the videos of the Muslims around the world celebrating that day and on our street here. Bush was blamed for everything while he was there.Gas prices are going up so there must be a big oil guy still in there somewhere. You ,CNN ,and moderate and just plain censor all you want but if you and your liberal ways win we all lose. You invite us to chime in but what you really want is control of the media.

It's easy to be critical if you have no responsibility for the immediate safety of the country or are trying to extract information to save someone you love.
I prefer Dirty Harry attempting to extract the information to save the little girl burried in the shallow grave, if it were my wife or daughter I would hang them up by their, well there are two of them.

Fred

Then I guess one could argue that Saddam was just merely trying to protect his country. And Kim Jong-il is trying to protect his, and so on.

I understand that torture might seem like the fastest way to get what we want... but it's proven flawed time and time again. I think, as a country, we are capable of taking the harder road and making it work.

PLUS – very importantly – no one ever talks about the toll torture takes on our men and women acting as torturers. Can you imagine how they must feel haunted? Talk about ruining someone's life. As the daughter of a war vet, I can tell you that the effects of war last and linger. I'd rather have our troops/CIA/FBI/whatever be able to go home at the end of the day knowing that they treated their prisoners with respect and dignity, to the best of their ability.

What wud be the difference between us and the people we call terrorists if we stoop down to their level. In their eyes we would become the terrorists.

We cannot bring about change claiming to be saviors while acts of some of our own contradict us.

Well as a retired military member I have been water boarded while in training, In I had to go Three times. Effective but I do not believe it was torture.
I believe that our country has gotten so soft that soon everyone will be at risk. And further more I have not seen a country yet that abides by the Geneva conventions rules, we are always the one who has too.
Come people everyone wants what we have and they are coming after it. Read your history

I'm tired of people saying, "we do it to our troops so it can't be torture". We do it to our troops so they can understand what it's like to be tortured and have a better idea of how to handle it. We torture our own troops as part of torture resistance training. It's as simple as that.

Alex is right part of living in a free society is the chance that some will take advantage of that freedom and use it against us, but that isn't a reason to give up what we stand for.

Hey Phil how easily we forget 9/11...oh I'm sorry that was our fault

the second that innocent lives are at stake (hundreds, if not thousands), and the alleged terrorists make their decision not to tell, the government(those who keep us safe) have the right to do anything necessary to get the proper information to keep their people safe. security is the number one job of a government and once that security is threatened, they have the right to do whatever is necessary to properly do their job.

as long as no lives were lost, i commend the actions taken by the government

I believe water boarding and other such techniques should never be used and should be considered torture but lets not confuse those types of techniques with those that do permanent damage such as repeatedly breaking limbs or yanking out finger nails or repeated rapes (males and females). Those are example of real extreme torture that are used by oppressive regimes. Also remember that the people these techniques were used on are murders of innocents who think nothing of murdering innocent women and children and in fact do so on purpose.

torture is cruel and unusual punishment that violates our consitution. end of story. whether or not it's effective or not is a moot point. we could end the israeli/palestinian conflict with two hydrogen bombs to wipe out the entire mess. effective? sure. "the ends justifies the means." no, sometimes, the process is even more important.

The issue here is, are we going to copy this revenge formula for dealing with the rest of the world. An Iranian chops off the head of an Israeli, then the Israeli does similar to the Iranian. It never ends. All this does is produce a culture in which children are brought up hating America and more enemies are born.

We can get much more and accurate inteligence from the rest of the world if they realize we are the good guys and Al Queda for example, are the bad guys. The rest of the world tires of their behavior.

IMO, if you connect or identify with these captives to where they realize you arent the enemy then they are more willing to give you help. These are human beings, they cannot deep down possibly feel good about what they are doing. It is done out of fear and hate.

The way we win is making this an entire world against Al
Queda/ Taliban and not Bad America against Bad Al Queda/Taliban.

And Chaney has done more to destroy this country along with Bush than anyone in modern history.

To worried moderate:
You state " Another wonderful note you fail to SEE is that the people being interogated DO NOT FALL UNDER the Geneva Convention. Read, learn it, love it. They are not uniformed military, therefore they are not considered POWs.
The Jews in Europe were not as you say "uniformed military, therefore they are not considered POWs." So I guess it was okay to for the Nazis to torture them.
To the Jewish people you would be known as a schmuck.

I don't think I can really say what I would and wouldn't do until I was entrusted to protect this nation. I would hope that I would maintain my morals and values. We should not kill people but if someone broke into my house and was trying to hurt me or my family I probably would kill them. Their are so many positions you could take regarding the enhanced techniques that were used. If you take the position that you were trying to protect this nation and be proactive than these techniques might be justified in your eyes at that moment. I would not want our troops to be treated in humanly so we probably should not treat people like that.

Saying all that, this is war and war is not neat and orderly. Innocent people get killed! Wake up! Regardless of our technology and how much we have grown as a nation it still boils down to one main theme. KILL OR BE KILLED. Until i walk in someone elses shoes I don't know what really happened. Sometimes you are not fully informed about a situation but you think you are and that causes you to hold alot of opinions. Until I am briefed by the CIA about the plans these monsters have or had for us than I can probably evaluate the situation a bit more.

My goodness, what false reality do we live in when we think that war is nice and pretty and everyone does the right thing all the time. Thats why soldiers die! The darn rules of engagement are established by people who probably never been in a combat situation. We need some old vienam vets making these decisions and get rid of the dam policians. We probably would have been out of this war 3 or 4 years ago.

We should not torture, not because it is ineffective or inspires more terrorism, but because it is a grave sin and against God and man.

The world is still stunned that the Bush administration made torture policy. Then they continually lied about it. Very perverse behavior from such an ostentatiously Christian crowd.

TW,

Arguing with your first sentence – "I guess one could say, defending or looking for ways to defend the safety of our American people is a mistake." – would be, to use Mr. Zelikow's phrase from above, a "sucker's game." And that is exactly why you preface your point with such a comment.

Your second sentence is closer to fair, yes, criminals can be criminal, while government ought very much to be better than that. If those in public service were to be "sloppy," as you say, I think that would be the bad precedent.

This whole mess sickens me. These killers actually have rights and the weak pathetic Americans that can't stomach the WAR want to turn the other cheek. I can see the 3000 people who died in the twin towers mean nothing to these folks. I heard all the arguments concerning the laws and such. Folks let me tell you now, this is WAR and when your life hangs in the balance there are NO RULES you do what you must to survive and win. War is messy and cannot be played as a board game and then you clean up. These animals behead people alive, imagine a knife very slowly cutting through your throat and then your neck being severed while you are still trying the breathe and you can see everything that is going on. Now thats some thing that is not human so why should we waste our time caring how these animals were treated????? These killers are laughing at us because we are better than them right?????? Some times harsh methods must be deployed to offset harsh realities!!! America, get your heads out of your butts and support your country!!

funny how the profound moralists ... have no morals or dare i say it ... family values ... when it comes out, we will all be ashamed that Dick Cheney was ever elected and reelected to office ... clearly a dark day for all Americans

Once you have lost a brother, sister, mother, father, wife, son or daughter to a terrorist attack on U.S. soil, then and only then you will realize that what the leadership of our country did was justified in gathering the information needed to stop more attacks from happening. Until you realize that the terrorist play by their own rules and not by any Jenova Convention and will do anything to destoy the U.S. maybe then you will stop crying about the techniques used to extract viable information to stop more senseless attacks on our great nation. You must realize that at the time that this happened the U.S. already had viable information that more attacks were imminent, we just didn't know who how or when they would occur. We got that information and those attacks were thwarted.

Of course the police have to be squeaky clean. How would you feel if you were arrested, prosecuted, and then convicted by police and district attorneys who are not completely above board? You'd challenge your conviction, right? Or would you just let them do whatever they want and let you rot in jail, or worse?

How does waterboarding compare to BEHEADING?

Which Muslim terrorists observe the GENEVA CONVENTION?

Tactics must change with a brain-washed enemy
who is unafraid of death.

Kind of seems like these folks should consider themselves lucky we didnt whack off their heads, that's what they would have done. Now that's torture, this mickey mouse junk their talking about now is not torture. No bones were broken, they still have their fingernails. So what if they had a little discomfort, war is hell and they started it.

And I was under the delusion that America was supposed to be "The good guys."

People who support torture don't support American values. If they want to live in a country that tortures, they should move to N. Korea or Iran.

Fred: That's the question I was just about to ask. To those that abhor "Torture" aka waterboarding, if a loved one of yours was being held captive and you had 24 hours before they would be killed, and you happen to have one of the captives would you:
a) Play nice and hope they realized the mistake they made and give you the information.
b) Ask them repeatidly to PLEASE PLEASE do the decent thing and help you.
c) Interogate for 2 hours, give them 1 hour off, interogate another 2, etc...
d) Harsh interigation methods such as water boarding.
e) Hand me the cordless drill and torch!!!

It's always nice to be to idealistic, until real life hits you in the face.

I'm sorry I'm a d man

I am so frusterated wit the entire waterboarding situation. You people could give a damn about America and the safety of your families. These people interrogate with your safety in mind first and foremost. Secondly if it was the other way around and you were the ones being interrogated by these extremists, you would have already had your heads chopped off on the internet. Use your heads people and stop making our country appear so weak!

To Worried Moderate,

I have read them and you are wrong.
Anyone else care to check it out?
This links to the text of the Geneva Conventions.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Understanding this requires an understanding of numerous other U.S. policies, laws and rulings that directly and indirectly relate to this. Sorry there's not a neat tidy rationalization of your views.

Let's all be informed.

Well, we did torture. Knowingly and deliberately. I'm glad that I don't have to make the decisions about acts of that nature. We want our leaders to make the "right" decisions, but what is morally and ethically right is not always the same as what's right for our best interest.

My problem is more of the hypocrisy of the leadership, or lack there of. It was done and then denied.

The immorality of torture is independent of its effectiveness. The only question on the table is whether we were cowards (seeking personal safety by our immoral acts) or aimless sadists.

Not taking any prisoners ,as our enemies practice ,would have solved the whole problem.

As a former Paratrooper from the 82nd Airborne Division, and recently retired. I would like to ask one question: Has anyone thought about what happens to our Soldiers, Sailers, Marines and Airmen when we get captured? In most cases as a POW we would love to get water boarded or any of the other tactics versus a "Beheading"! In some cases some of the individuals who were waterboarded had actually participated in American "Beheadings" in the past. Before this whinning gets to far out of hand, take a look back into what has happened to our captured Troops from Somalia forward.

1SG (RET) K.D Baggett
82nd ABN DIV

didnt we complain about the soviet secret prisons, secret police, invasions of privacy, use of torture? and now we do it. i am starting to wonder who REALLY won the cold war.

The more I'm reading about harsh interrogation/torture being used on the terrorists, the less I'm thinking it might really be necessary. From what I read, some of these people are seriously terrified of catapillers. They are also put in protective head and body gear and thrown up against a padded wall. NO ONE is that easy to crack unless they are truly gutless, cowards who kill innocent women and children. Oh wait?

If an employee causes harm during the conduct of business, isn't his boss reponsible for his actions? Bush and his cronies are responsible, period. I hope another Scooter Libby, the "scape goat" scenario does not apply here.

I love how people comment about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of torture as if they knew a damn thing about it. All the people in this thread can do is argue the moral dilemma and the hypothetical: "If torture worked, would I do it?" How about some high profile former intelligence guy coming out and arguing FOR torture? That'll get my attention. I don't need beaurecrats and ideologues singing its praises while getting second-hand info on reliability/results.

Mr Kilburn,
It appears you haven't been paying attention. In testimony yesterday it was stated quite clearly that traditional methods HAD been producing results. Then the private contractors came in and insisted on using the ENHANCED methods. And in the case of Abu Zubaydah, he immediately clammed up. When they went back to the regular methods, he began to talk again. This is all in the record. So the enhanced methods weren't employed because other tactics didn't work, they were used by sadistic contractors with their own agenda. And clearly they didn't work if they had to keep at it 80 some times. So pay attention bud. These methods do not work. All they do is inflame the people who want to hurt us, and serve as a great recruiting tool.

And why on earth we're having contractors do our dirty work is beyond me

The point I was getting across is that if they are that easy to crack, then mere threats should actually do the trick. Average police interrogations do worse then this to many American citizens, yet not one word is spoken for those. Innocent until proven guilty? I think not.

Waterboarding as compared to what some of extremists do to their own families and people like blowing themselves up, throwing acid in the faces of their women, let alone their enemies, appears to be relatively minor.

Fred and all others who use the comparison of using torture to save your family – This may be useful if you are Liam Neeson and you are starring in a movie called Taken, or if you are Jack Bauer on 24, but this is not the case when we are talking about torturing detainees. 1), we are not even sure that all of the prisoners have been rightfully detained, 2) there have been numerous cases of innocent detainees being murdered by the 'techniques,' 3) intelligence officers have testified that these 'techniques' do not serve to obtain any more information than has been gained, and 4) it is these type of actions that serve to garner support against us, and rightfully so, America is supposed to be better than this.

He's not saying anything except he now disagrees with what was being done. No details as to whether or not he supported these actions initially, no details of what changed that caused him to change his position, no details about what he did to attempt to change the policies where people were being mistreated and being done so illegally, and no details about where those people are now why be so vocal about it now and what kind of compensation is being granted the people that were illegally mistreated.

They say the devil is in the details. Hmph...the truth is in the details too.

Come on guys, can't we just ask these criminals "pretty please"? That should work shouldn't it? Ok, maybe "pretty please with sugar on top".

Yeah, its easy for you guys sitting in the comfort of your homes or offices to spout off about how "torturing makes us no better than the criminals". Thank God its not up to you to protect our nation.

HUMANITY HAS NEVER BEEN CIVILIZED AND NEVER WILL. THERE ARE TO MANY KANE'S AND NOT ENOUGH ABEL'S. AND WE ALL KNOW THE ANCESTORS OF THE KANE'S CAME FROM THE CAUCAS MOUNTAIN REGION WHO TRAVELLED TO IRAN AND MIXED WITH THE NATIVE PEOPLE RESULTING IN THE FIRST ARYANS UNITL THEY MIGRATED TO INDIA IN 3000 BC AND CREATED THE CASTE SYSTEM...THE ORIGINS OF RACISM...WHY DO YOU THINK THE BLACK DOT MEANS DEFEAT AND THE WHITE DOT MEANS PEACE...YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK AT WHO CREATED IT. THAT IS WHY IN INDIA THE LIFGHT SKINNED GREEN AND BLUE EYED PEOPLE HAVE ALL THE WEALTH AND THE VERY DARK INDIANS HAVE NOTHING....WELL UNTIL THEY FOUND THE AFRICAN BLACK MAN

The highest American ideals have always been liberty and justice. Safety is a feeling, not an ideal. Only a coward chooses a safe society over a just society.

There is a reason that we don't send detainees back to their country of origin. The reason is that we fear that they may tortured back home. I mean, why send them home to get tortured when we can just do it ourselves.

Each and everyone of you are hypocrites! If you family was kidnapped and held with life being threatened and you caught the criminal. You would do anything in your power to bring your children home, including waterboarding. If you doubt this you are flat out lieing to yourself!

Why can't they just slip these people LSD? Wasn't that the simple truth serum created for that fact?

Zelikow et al are still guilty of crimes against humanity. You can't defend your continued involvement by working within the organization to stop torture. You must leave at the first opportunity that your life is not in danger, his never was. see Nuremberg.

I hope this makes it to the comments......Everyone on this board is trying so hard to be moral, philosphical and peaceful. Our world is not based on peace. Our country has NEVER been based on peace. Get real. This whole situation was put into place way before two planes hit the World Trade Center. Bin Laden was pissed that we weren't going to back his expensive habits and the world had to pay for his tantrum. We needed to succesfully desensitize his brainwashing and shrink his powerful hold over his 'followers,' but he uses his religion to puff up his plight. What a freakin' coward! I wonder why he hasn't come forward to claim his martyrdom – wouldn't that strengthen his cause? The problem is that he has no cause – he's just a drug-addicted child convincing the oppressed that he's right and everyone else in the world is wrong. In the meantime, innocent people are being blown to pieces and we're arguing about a war technique that, by the way, has never killed anyone. What about the people still being tortured by those we let go? Is everyone that blind to what's going on?

People need to have tolerance – that's what will bring peace. As the world stands right now, what is there that gives us hope? With all due respect, it isn't any government leader. They're just trying to keep everyone happy. It's within ourselves and no one can make it happen except for us. That's psychology 101, folks – take it or not – it's up to you.

What are these supposed other ways of interrogation I keep hearing about? I would like to know if these other ways are and why are not other countries using them. If they are so effective why have we not heard about them. At least MCcain and Pelosi can agree on something.

Okay, you torture a prisoner, and he confesses that they're planning to bomb, say, the Golden Gate Bridge, then we send military to guard the bridge and nothing happens. Was the prisoner lying to stop the torture or did the torture help protect America? I know how Cheney would answer that question.

What I don't understand is if the enhance techniques were successful and the CIA wrung every bit of information outta the "terrorists" and/or "enemy combatants", why didn't the CIA just kill them afterwards and bury them somewhere?

If the CIA is going to resort to these uncivilized interogation tactics, go the full route and dispose of those who are no longer useful.

Why clog up the prisons or the judical system with enemies of the state?

Al Queda, Taliban and radical Islamics seem to have no trouble doing this. The CIA should be able to beat them at their own game, I would think.

I think Mr. Zelikow is being too charitable. There were people in the Bush administration who had the Patriot Act months before 9/11. They are the same ones who believe force is the only way to show strength.

All this takl about 7 1/2 year of no terrorist attacks on American soil overlooks some important facts:

1. The Clinton administration began developing an office to address the terrorist issue. They launched drones at terrorist leaders and destroyed facilities in Africa. None of these were supported by congressional rebulicans who were only interested in framing a democratic president.

2. This effort was closed down when the Bush Administration came into office because they were focused on Iraq.

3. "Bin Laden Determined to Attack US"

4. 9/11

The republican defense strategies bring nothing to the table. They were corrupt and ineffective when it counted, then when the horse was out of the barn, they proceeded to destroy America's heart and soul.

I understand the mentality right after September 11th. People were scared. How did this happen to us? Will it happen to us again? Then fear turned to anger. People wanted to hurt those who had hurt the United States. People became blinded by rage and no longer cared whether the damage inflicted on the enemy was within the guidelines set up by the Geneva Conventions or even the rules of engagement; because a lot of rules go out the door in a time of war. They just wanted someone to pay. The majority of people became a lot more agreeable to the idea of looking the other way, of giving the President a lot of free reign because they trusted his judgement. The president had a 90% approval rating at the time.

Now people are in a reflective stage. Now people are feeling guilty. There is only one way to make something that feels wrong feel right. A person has to rationalize so as to make what they did justifiable. Torture is wrong, just as killing is. Yet soldiers do it every day in the name of duty and country. Why do you think so many come back with PSTD? It is hard to rectify and reconcile with their own brains that the killing served some larger purpose. If a person grows up with the mentality that killing is wrong or torturing is wrong...that is not something that can be erased by a few months of training. It is a psychological mess. Cheney has to believe that what he did was right for his own minds sake or else he will go crazy.

Hey Steve you can't be that dumb...if history will always be re0written by whomever wins the war. The ruling people in this case the Anglo Saxon man has dominated the earth for the last couple of centuries but eventually when your turn is up cause you have to realize those dirty Arabs controlled the world for almost 1300 years but we changed the facts just as the Chinese or whoomever becomes dominant after the infighting begins and we destroy ourshelve...that's why i keep telling you idiots to learn history....imagine Hitler read history and didn't make the same mistake Napoleon did....he would have been the world super power...most of the weapons the US has now comes from the German scientist that the US stole from Germany and let's not forget Prescott Bush helping the Nazi's....To bad we never learn

Regarding TW Harris's post:

"...Criminals can be sloppy in the way they kill people but the police and other law enforcement agency must be almost squeeky clean. Bad Precedent!!!"

We (our police, agents, military, etc.,) are supposed to be *better* than these criminals, terrorists, enemy soldiers, etc. – since those people use such tactics against us, if we do the same back then we're just as bad.

Like it or not, in a lot of respects we have to fight with one hand tied behind our backs because a better society is *supposed* to show RESTRAINT in exacting justice – which is what keeps it from being petty vengeance. Morals and ethics aren't truly important until they're inconvenient to be practiced – by still practicing them, even under the worst circumstances, we prove that we're better.

those who think othwerwise are hypocritics, when the opposition behead soldiers, we look at it in awe and belief

If Cheney doesn't think waterboarding is torture, I say we use it on him and GWB to get the truth about who ordered the manufactured evidence on WMDs and all the other treasonous lies their administration told.

As usual, people speak without having all the facts. You guys just hate and that makes you blind. We initiated those interrogation techniques after other interrogation methods had been used and failed. The enemy was plotting more attacks against the US and the WEST long before 911. They were succesful. London, Madrid. Bali, Embassies everywhere (not only US),WTC in the 90's, and so on. My friends, its a long list. The enemy studied VietNam and USSR in Afghanistan. They were clever and we were naive because we did not want to do what it took to defeat this new threat. Our leadership has to walk a tight rope when it comes to be viewed as an aceptable partner in the global stage. We have made mistakes, but ALWAYS remember, they hated us first. We are just doing what we have to do.

There is so many comments without any intelligence and no common sense. I did not realize there are so many people willing to give their lives to anyone that wants to cut off their heads. It seems strange that all of these people are commenting . . . it they really believe what they are saying, they should go to another country where beheading is common. If there shoul be no punishment for evil acts, then move to the areas that you can all be really big heros.

If anyone thinks war can be fought in a church social atmosphere they are not living in reality. We have lost over 5000 men killed and thousands maimed. If one of our American soldier was saved it was right. We should practice the same Geneva convention rules our opponents do. We are going to lose many many more in the "just " war in Afghanistan. I would like to know what the hell is the difference in this one and the one in Iraq. Have you noticed you hear very little about the ones killed now in Afghanistan or Iraq. New Pres, new power, media control which makes it all right. He has the power (voters gave it to him) to pull our troops from every country of the world right now but not the gonads that a good leader like George Bush had. We should bring back the draft and draft all the MOnday morning quarterbacks first .

Agree with Tom, everyone objects to interrogation methods, regardless if they work or not, on principle alone. In the real world, where you need factual intelligence and you need it quick, you do what you have to. And, proper interrogatoin techniques have always produced credible data. The core of interrogation is fear, and not the kind of fear of being locked up, having women strip in front of you or having pork shops waved in your face. A proper interrogation method entails real fear of your own well being or if you do not care about that, someone you DO care about

Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice and Rumsfeld are criminals and should be arrested and tried as such. 9/11 was horrible, I know, I watched it take place from my window. But Osama Bin Laden didn't destroy our country, Bush and Cheney did! They bankrupted our country both financially and morally. Rove, Rice and Rumsfeld are just as guilty. The Executive branch is 100% responsible for what took place under the Bush administration—Stop blaming Congress! Let's put Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice and Rumsfeld in jail!

Let's not call torture "harsh interrogations" please, let's call it torture.

It's easy to be critical if you have a fundamental understanding of right and wrong. Unfortunately, every single official who signed off on the legality, necessity, and efficiency of these "enhanced interrogation" techniques proved themselves to be totally unfit to lead in any capacity as they are incapable of discerning right or wrong.

I spent 22 years in the military and was very plainly taught what was considered torture, and that there was no one, sergeant, lieutenant, general, or president, who could give a legal order to use it.

Ergo, every so-called legal expert who advised that these techniques were permissible under their twisted interpretation of the law is an accomplice to a conspiracy to commit torture and should be tried and punished. All uniformed military members involved with the decision to use these methods should be court-martialed and punished. Former President Bush and former VP Cheney are too late to be impreached; but they can be taken to court and punished as international war criminals. For the non-military intelligence agencies, civil statutes against torture should be charged against them and appropriate sentences handed down.

As far as the so-called valuable information that Richard Cheney claims was extracted under these techniques; he's a bald-faced liar. None of the information was reliable. None of the information was of time-critical importance. None of the information was unobtainable by other known, evidence-based, clearly legal, human methods.

Point to remember. The invocation of national security by members of the G.W. Bush administration is not to protect the country, but to protect the members of that administration from justice and the consequences of their behavior.

The nazi's tortured, it was horrible, they were horrible, we went to war. The japanese tortured, it was horrible, they were horrible, we went to war. Sadaam Hussein, the bad man, tortured, we went to war. So lets do the same thing, right? What sets up apart from the others, we don't torture, we believe in all human beings rights no matter how evil they are. There are better ways to get information, just ask the people who are experts at this kind of thing. Torture doesn't work, it's inhuman, it's against the law. If Cheney and Bush authorized it, as Cheney now proudly admits on TV (and by the way this information can be used as evidence against him and Bush), then Cheney and Bush should be prosecuted.

Once again, just as with Ms. Pelosi, we must ask – where WAS this "courageous" defender of "human rights" back in 2002 when these interrogation methods were reviewed, Congressional leaders briefed, and all parties concerned Agreed they were NECESSARY, LEGAL, and PRUDENT?

Where was he?

A shameful practice from a nation that was one of the main architects of the Geneva Conventions. Also, we don't torture serial murderers in the U.S. if they refuse to confess. Now why do you think that is?

As a State Department official, how is he an insider to waterboarding and enhanced intterrogation techniques? He is a diplomat. He did not draft memos, formulate policy, participate in the interrogations, never served in uniform, was never a spy. In what way is he an insider?

To TW Harris

By your way of thinking we should just go out and hire other criminals to kill the people you say are bad. Sounds like the golden rule let he who has the most gold make the rules.

@ The Ranger May 14th, 2009 12:31 pm ET

The Iraq war was fueled by false information from a tortured terrorist. For that, over 4,300 Americans lost their lives following their pledge to fight all enemies foreign and domestic. As I go to the VA hospital regularly for mental illness, and physical therapy I wish I gained these injuries fighting our true proven enemies in Afghanistan, instead of fighting someone who was defending their home, and rights no matter how small they were before we got there. Remember your Army values if your name on this blog is true to your training!

Hats off to all my fellow brethren still in harms way!

We have encountered the enemy. The enemy is ourselves...

Philip Zelikow might be paid by ACLU or an ACLU underground

I would like to say that I was in the Army about 20 years ago. I think torture is wrong and anyone that condoned it in the Chain-Of-Command should be charged with war crimes and brought to justice.

As an Ex-Military person I think we should have Zero Tolerance for everyone in the chain of command including the President, his staff, the Congressional Defense and Intelligence committees, the CIA, and also the General and their subordinate commanders.

Throw them all in prison as war criminals.

What people are failing to realize is that war has changed; we are now dealing with rogue organizations. The same ones that behead people. Do you honestly think for a minute that any Al Qaeda or similar group has a list of torture do's and dont's? The answer is no! War is not pretty and it is not fair, and sometimes you have to take drastic measures whether you like it or not.

Tough Topic, as I see the rationale on both sides.
Absolutely torture or "harsh techiques" degrade those who participate in them, however if waterboarding some guy resulted in him spilling the fact that 19 people would board planes and ram them into buildings 8 years ago, it'd be hard to criticize. One guy's discomfort against 3000 American lives...do the math.
In regards to "being just like the bad guys"...here's the difference...They attack and kill innocent people, while we "harshly treat" murderers and plotters. They stop blowing up people at weddings and they wouldn't find them selves in Gitmo (or wherever they send these criminals now)

To Matthew Kilburn
That is flawed logic I'm afraid.
There is no indication that other methods failed.
However, if they suspected more information could be obtained then those methods could be used whether there was anything else or not. The mere suspicion of more could have been enough to use waterboarding.

The purpose of torture is to scare the Arab/Muslim Amercians from talking. From saying things like:
1- The equivalent of the destruction that we inflicted on Iraq is (a) 20 million Americans dead, (b) 40 millions Americans homeless, (c) At least 20 millions Amercian refugees outside the USA.
2- NO 20 or 100 Arabs with a million dollar can pull 9/11 off, unless the Mosad, the CIA, the FBI wants them to.
3- etc.

Very simply put, the authorities in this country MUST be held to a higher standard. Police and law enforcement are already mistrusted by a large segment of society even though the vast majority of them are honorable and upright defenders of the law. Of tens of thousands of daily arrests and police interventions, it only takes ONE misstep to cast a pall on the entire force. The same applies to CIA and FBI. I wonder how all the pro-torture folks will feel if they ever end up on the watch lists? What if your drinking buddy turns out to have a friend who is a terrorist? And they take a picture of you having a drink in a bar together. When you get hauled in, held without trial and tortured for info about your "association" – how will you feel about it then. Torture of "really bad people" seems like a good idea on the surface, but who gets to decide who these really bad people are? How can we be sure they get it right? And what if one of these really bad people starts naming innocents as accomplices? You do the math.

I'm hearing a lot of arguments along the lines of "i guess torture is okay, some of the times."
I feel like i'm reading Animal Farm when I read some of these posts. Torture is not American. Terrorists use torture because they're the bad guys. We do the same, we become the bad guys too.

Apparently some people still don't get it. If I had to torture someone to save my child, I would do it. But would not be culpable– it is done under duress so the argument is irrelevant. The Bush administration was not forced to torture– they chose to. There were other alternatives. Torture is far from the most effective intelligence-gathering method. Tortured prisoners will make up anything, say anything you want whether it was true or not. You can't separate the true stuff from the other stuff. Even if it did work perfectly, torturing prisoners makes us the same as the other bad guys. So anyone reading this that is advocating torture, don't you EVER think you are any better than the Nazis, North Korea, al Queda, etc because you are no better than them. If the US claims to be a beacon of higher standards, then let us act like it.

We need to begin the long painful legal process of investigations,grand juries,indictments and trials.It's the only way that we can prove to ourselves and to the world that our government is based on laws and that justice is there for all. Much of what happened was done out of fear. We should let qualified juries decide if laws were broken.

To those of you backing torture as a method to obtaining information you are quite simply idiots and immoral to boot. I wonder if the government picked you up thinking for some reason (and trust me governments and the police make mistakes especially when they are relying on neighbors turning on neighbors) you had vital information and then tortured you if you would think this was an effective method of extracting information. Even if you forget the immorality of torture it's a totally ineffective method of gathering information. People who are tortured will tell you ANYTHING to stop the torture. You are also assuming that the people torturing are infallible in their opinion of who is "guilty" with no due process.... I seriously cannot believe what this country became during that time period. I'm disgusted.

Since "please" doesn't work anymore, we have to find ways to get information from terrorists. Maybe we should let them attack us since we don't want that information bad enough.

Pelosi did a great thing by allowing water boarding which led to the discovery of a terror cell in CA. The FBI was able to stop this attack just as it was moving into its final stages. But, who cares, right!!

The leading Arab-American interrogator of terrorists for the FBI testified yesterday that the United States lost valuable intelligence after the FBI was replaced with "contractors" to torture leading Al Quada suspects. The FBI subsequently had a complete break with the CIA over the latter's use of torture and even removed all agents from Guantonamo over their disgust with the uselessness and brutality of torture tactics developed by an administration of chickenhawks. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the entire United States military establishment, John McCain Lindsey Graham and any other Republican who actually served in the military also opposed the Bush torture program for the harm it caused the United States and the enormous benefits it conferred on Al Quada

9/11 has been forgotten, Terrorists chopping off heads on film have been forgotten. 3000 civilians dead have been forgotten. All the dead american soldiers in Iraq aqnd Aghanistan are forgotten. The TERRORISTS in GITMO are just misunderstood crimanals and all we need to do is rehabilatate them . There parents ignored them.
We need to give them ice cream and candy and they will stop killing us and tell us anything we want.
When we are attacked again, which will probably happen because of all of you good people have been protected and now feel safe enough to be forgiving to these terrorists. Your memories are short-lived.
We felt this safe before 9/11 , remember? No you don't or you would not be so quick to soften our stance on defending our country.

Wow, I'm amazed that people think you can get info from religious fanatics by asking nicely. Sadly we need another attack here to remind people that we are at war with an enemy that has no principles. If you want to be principled and dead be my guest. People mention things they would die for, well I also know of things I would kill or torture for. If that makes me as bad as the enemy so be it. I'd rather be alive and "unprincipled" than dead and righteous.

Hey Anonymous,
You are everything that is wrong with this country today. I have no respect for your passivist opinion. If one of your family members was in captivity over seas in the custody of these heathons, you would change your little girl opinion really quick. Stop letting the new administration brainwash you. When this war makes it on to American soil in the next 10 years, because of how weak our new administration has made us in 100 some odd days, I really hope that you eat your words.

Sincerely,

Your MOM

This is not about our personal opinions on "if" and "when" to torture.
This is very simple.
The U.S. has agreed to follow the Geneva Conventions.
Period.
Read them.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

I agree with the Pirate!! Let me ask this question to all Americans. These terrorists strap mega explosives to their bodies and blow themselves up in the middle of a bunch of people with ZERO consideration for collateral damage and all the innocent women and children that will be slaughtered. The same people behead human beings alive in the name of Islam. Why should we as a people have any consideration for any one who acts in this method of random, indiscriminate carnage?????? If they are going to blow them selves up anyway into a billion pieces then, is it not fair to say that you cannot abuse people of this kind because of their intentions against mankind and the horrific methods employed?????? America, lets get our common sense back and start supporting our country and our leaders!!!! STOP THE POLITICING AND THINK OF OUR SECURITY!!!

To Worried Moderate
So if you are that certain that it is required and all those against are wrong...why arent you an E man?

The use of torture to protect our freedom, is not representative of the type of freedom our country was founded on.

There is a reason why the bill of rights was included in our constitution.

Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that not only would this type of behavior be tolerated in this country, but American citizens should also not participate in such behavior.

To think that we are the only people on earth to reap the benefits of the intent of our founding fathers, is repugnant and shameful.

On one hand, the Bush administration wanted to spread democracy throughout the world, but on the other hand, they wanted to restrict the benefits of democracy to non-citizens by torturing them.

A true patriot would not take part in this type of behavior.

Correction to my last comment...

"Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that not only would this type of behavior be tolerated in this country, but American citizens should also not participate in such behavior."

Should read:

Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that not only would this type of behavior NOT be tolerated in this country, but American citizens should also not participate in such behavior.

"The issue isn’t did we get valuable information from these people. The issue is — were there other ways of getting the information that would have been as or more effective without having to subject them to physical abuse? In other words, it’s a comparative evaluation. So when you just say well did we get good information reports from these people and then you get in an argument about that, that’s a sucker’s game. The real issue is to do the comparison and actually a lot of information was available at the time to do an honest comparison that wasn’t used and since then, for example, we’ve been fighting al Qaeda in Iraq for years using methods that comply with international standards in a very effective fight."

And Zelikow then gets into his own sucker's game. you cannot say that highly placed Al-Qaeda operatives would be as susceptible to the same tactics used on AQ foot soldiers in Iraq. The higher up you are the more training you get in resisting such tactics. Not to mention Selikow cannot actually say with any certainty that our successes against AQ in iraq come from solely for the soft interrogation of AQ suspects and in fact probably has more to do with the Iraqi people's hatred of AQ, and turning in intel on AQ, then anything we do with the peons we capture who belong to Al Qaeda in Iraq.

Ultimately, saying the ends justifies the means – information garnered from torture justifies the torture – is faulty logic, and will more often than not fail in practical use. What is an acceptable ratio of unsuccessful to successful torture sessions? Isn't this logic the same that the terrorists use to justify THEIR horrific actions? As a society, we must accept the risks associated with freedom. Yes – we would all be horrified and willing to do anything to protect a family member from harm – and that is precisely why we have a dispassionate third party in charge of enforcing crime and punishment. Otherwise the eye-for-an-eye logic used by pro-torture folks to justify treatment of suspected terrorists will spill over into all law enforcement, society at large, and that eye-for-an-eye vengeance-based society is what spawned these middle-east terrorists in the first place.

To Dear Anonymous:
Since if you get your way in ten years I'll be living in the United States of Iraq I'm more worried about you. The terrorists are already here and they are every person here arguing that torturing people is justifiable. Hmmm... what's next? Cutting off hands if someone steals? This all sounds vaguely familiar... I wonder why...? Oh yeah weren't you all here during Nazi Germany too? When rounding up the "enemy" and putting them in camps was all the rage? You ain't my Mom. My Mom taught me principles and morals.

With all the bleeding hearts commenting on this board, God help this country.

If dismembering those dirt bags saved one American life, it would be worth it. With all the tears being shed for the terroists on this board, this country is doomed.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/07/15/hersh/index.html

The waterboarding issue is just the beginning of the story of our abuse. See above link.

Seems we are not defining the problem correctly. Those who assert, that torture is unacceptable under any circumstance are not being very thoughtful. Would they feel the same way if the choice was between saving their own child, or using torture to stop the self confessed perpratrator. Will they honestly sit by and sanction the murder of their own child, while the person who has confessed to causing the potential harm is able to sit there laughing. I don't believe it! At the same time, there is no doubt that using torture on every suspect is NOT acceptable. But that is not what we are debating here.

We are not talking here about people who claim innocence. These individuals are caught on the battle field, they were actively engaged in trying to cause harm, and there is significant evidence to suggest they know more than they are revealing.

For those who would equate the government using torture on combatants, to the terrorist suicide bombings, I would point out, that a surgeon cuts your chest to save your life, while a butcher cuts your chest to murder you. The action is the same, while the desired outcome is quite different. Our government is using torture ONLY on self proclaimed enemies to save lives. The suicide bomber is trying to destroy lives in order to cause terror in his enemies.

It's kind of like saying that the Nazi's drank wine, and we drink wine, so there is a little bit of Nazi's in all of us. An action taken by our enemies, does not equate us or make us in to our enemies if we take the same action.

I see torture in a limited way deployed by our government on a well defined combatant profile as perfectly reasonable way to deal with the challenges we face.

Too much BS. Next time 911 happens, lets all take it and stay at home. And wait for more, unless of course,we comply with the request of all that harms us. That is the alternative being questioned here,is it not?

Pelosi acted like a scared rat this morning. It is disgraceful to see her standing in front of the American flag. She has such selective memory and why would you send a staffer to such an important meeting? One way ticket to SF

I agree! We really should have asked the terrorists nicely who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Perhaps, even now, it might not be too late to ask them nicely to lay down their weapons and stop killing people, hiding behind civilians, and plotting the death of as many Americans as possible.

You ever have one of those "I can't believe I never thought of that" moments?

There is torture and there is TORTURE . I see comparisons of what our government did to Nazi Germany, Taliban ,Japan, They knew how to torture we only played mind games .
They used bamboo under nails, They burned hot branding irons in flesh, They cut off fingers. They starved, that is real torture.They killed.
I see comparisons with terrorists and every day crimanials. Some think these terrorists should be treated like a pickpocket,or a DUI. They should have a therapist session 3 times a week and given probation for 1 year. They should get a $500. ticket and their drivers license suspended maybe.
Do you people really beleive the CIA or the FBI couldn't tell between a lie and the truth when interagating these mis-understood killers?

how many of you whiney liberals would love to torture a terrorist if they had your loved ones held as hostages or threaten to kill the ones you love. How many of you would wish we would torture terrorist if you were the one being held captive and didn't know if the breath you just took was your last one – how many of you would then want us to find you and save you. It's so easy to be high and mighty from the side lines! You keep forgetting these people intentionally killed civilians – innocent men, women and children in the 9/11 attacks. You really need to watch the footage of that horrible day! they live for one reason – to kill Americans. If a little water got pertinent information out of just one of them (and the documents released prove it did!) then I say Hooray for our Military!!

I thank all those in the Bush adminstration for doing whatever it took to protect innocent Americans for nearly 8 years. Unfortunately, Pelosi and he new Dems have put us all at incredible risk.

I'm a HUGE supporter of the tv show 24...loved President Palmer and dig President Taylor! Jack Bauer's skill set should be used on exclusive matters...not generalized.

The past administration raised the red flag on everything...from creating a visual threat level display to creating confusion amongst themselves that trickled down to the American people.
What better time to insert "uniquely effective methods" on any front...wire taping your phone, reading your e-mail, WMD, "Mission Accomplished", hiring Enron executives AFTER their scam fell apart, flying Bin Laden's family out of the country AFTER 9/11 happened.
The past administration seemed to deem a lot of its activities as "legal"...huh?

The previous administration lived in the mindset of Nixon during the Frost Nixon interview:
David Frost: Are you really saying the President can do something illegal?
Richard Nixon: I'm saying that when the President does it, that means it's *not* illegal!
David Frost: ...I'm sorry?

Sadly, some things recycle themselves. Does it really matter what side of the isle I set on?

If you think America is the good guys try ambling through any inner city with anything shiney showing. Until everyone and everything is one shade of something except white there will always be the slavery thing. Socialism has created a monster that feeds on the working class until there is nothing left. Until everything is stolen, snorted, injected or spent on Social programs we will continue to have problems. I say make all drugs legal, feed them drugs for free till they croak and start another generation if there is any breeding stock left with an unfried brain. Probably be a world without people because most are too sorry to be a mother or father on purpose. It is chic to not take on the responsibility of a family now just manufacture them and let the state take care of them.

It takes a theif to catch a theif.

And you need to be a bit of a thug to confront a thug.

Take down the white flag, take off the gloves and get down and dirty with these low lifes.

The 'world' doesn't reject torture – at least 25% practice 'harsh techniques'. The Brits did in Northern Ireland only a few years ago.

Go to a Mexican jail and tell me there is justice in North America!

Hell, name one Middle East country (bar Israel) with a functioning democracy. They're all hypocritical losers.

We're in a fight people – it ugly sometimes so get used to it.

In America, we do not allow confessions in court obtained under torture and there is a reason. Under torture, you will admit to anything, say anything to stop the pain. How many innocent people in America have confessed to horrible crimes, including murder, after the confession was beaten out of them. Senator McCain confessed to being a war criminal in Vietnam.

During the Spanish Inquisition, which is where water-boarding originated, people would confess to being friends with Satan, knowing that if they admitted that, they would be executed.

We should not torture, not just because it's wrong and illegal, but because when being tortured, you will say anything, admit to anything, to stop the pain

Stewey,

Take your founding fathers bologna and eat it. Do you think all of the people who opressed the african americans for hundreds of years were true patriots? Do you think that the abusive interrogations by our own police forces are the acts of true patriots??? Before you bring your founding father and patriot b.s into this chat, why dont you worry about our own american people, George Washington would spit in your face if he heard you put the human rights of these extremists before your own people. You don't deserve to be a citizen of this great country.

As traditional Chinese wisdom goes, apply enough bodily pain to a suspect, and he/she will confess to anything you want to hear, even if the confession leads to a quick and clean death sentence for the entire clan. And if you are asking for accomplices? Well, then, anybody goes.
During the old dynasties, applying physical pain was perfectly legal and normal in order to extract confessions. So there were many folk tales detailing innocent people confessing after being subjected to stuff ranging from being beaten to a bloody pulp to having the fingers squeezed so hard that they broke. And of course, since the Heavens always knew everything, you'd then get snow flurries in the middle of summer or long periods of drought. In the end, regardless of whether the wrongfully indicted suspect would live to see the light of day again, these stories would always end with the bad/incompetent/cruel official being either punished by the higher-ups or by the Heavens, and leaving behind a disgraced name ever after.
These folk tales speak volumes about how the average Chinese in the old days, whose conventional wisdom also included "commoners do not fight against officials," perceived torture as used by government officials. Were those who confessed under physical pain always innocent? Were the accomplices they gave up always just innocent I-happened-to-know-his-name bystanders? There would be stories of people who purposely gave up names after being subjected to such treatment just because they were trying to frame people and wanted to make it look more believable. The point is, if you were an official who believed in such methods, then how would you know? After all, we see what we want to see, and if all else fails, you could always just beat the "accomplice" to a bloody pulp to have him confess.
If you believed that country/God were on your side, and were out to reach a goal regardless of the means, then what would stop you from bringing harm to the very people you were supposed to protect?
Shouldn't we know better?

"win if possible, integrity at all costs"
– John Wooden, UCLA basketball coach

this quote was mentioned in last nights game 7 between Pittsburgh Penguins & Washington Capitals, where the Pittsburgh coach is a disciple of John Wooden. Pittsburgh won.

To 1stSgt Baggett's comment:

"Before this whinning gets to far out of hand, take a look back into what has happened to our captured Troops from Somalia forward. "

Exactly. As a former soldier, I had hoped that we Americans would always be able to distinguish ourselves from other rogue elements in the world by our rectitude; our conduct.

It is terribly disappointing and unsettling to learn otherwise. Those involved in the sanctioning of these "enhanced interrogation methods" have truly dishonored every American that has donned a uniform.

Everytime this subject comes up, the message boards light up with the naive, the self-righteous and down right liberal flakes with no ability to understand nuance or to differentiate raw torture and harsher interrogation. The mentality of our leftist media influenced population is just sad. But i guess it explains the nanny-in-chief we have in DC – sell naive utopian visions and that nasty real world of good and evil, competition and self-responsibility goes away. Everyone, put your blinders on and crawl back into the womb!

I thought the bill of rights were written for Americans. They were not given to indians or slaves AT THE TIME WRITTEN, so HOW can you presume they were meant for the terrorists today who want to destroy our country and every American ?
These are people that want to change Laws just to justify the current position they hold at the time. If we are attacked or a member of their family was killed by these terrorists, they would be the first to demand any form of violence including torture.
My ancestors were killed by real terrorists during ww2 and you people would have lost us that war with your idealists theories.

Funny coincidence that the tide turned in the war in Iraq once the harsh interrogations stopped (2006).

Morality only when convenient = Hypocrite
Last I checked, people tend to not pay a whole lot of positive attention to hypocrites when they reprimand other people based on grounds of morality.

Voice of Reason you make the comment that very same reasoning could be used to describe suicide bombers in the Middle East, or the death camps in Nazi Germany.
You are further from the truth than the moon from earth. Suicide bombers kill innocent people to further their cause and get a shock & fear reaction. The Nazi killed the Jews for Genocidal purposes. Water boarding a known Terrorist suspect is nothing close to that. My son has gone through Special Forces training and believe me they beat the hell out of those boys during training and not one of them goes and whines to mommy about it. They take it because they know that if they get captured they will have to die before talking. Most of you people don’t even begin to realize how much good information is gotten out of the Jihad loving scum’s of the earth who’s soul goal in life it to kill Americans. And believe me when Crap hits the fan again which it will they aren’t going to separate the ones who don’t like them from all of you who think a group hug and playing nice it going to fix it.

Momar Kadfi made the comment a few years back saying the Allah is great and with in 50 years we will have beaten the west with out raising a single sword. He is talking about the demographics of the Islamic movement and the infiltration of our countries by breading us out. Personally I feel sorry for my grandchildren and their children.

Logic: Where in ARticle 4 does it state that these people would be deemed POWs? No where.

I don't want to hear anything from anyone about "waterboarding" that hasn't Googled "beheading", "stoning" or "female mutilation". Torture my a$$.

Under Bush/Cheney this was just one of soooooooooooooooooooo many "mistakes". Is there no wonder people the WORLD over truly dislike GOP'ers & Bush/Cheney?

Hey Larry: Nice try.

1. The Jewish people were considered civilians (even though the Geneva convention did not exist) that did not take up arms. So they were truely non-combatants, and today would fall under that part of the Geneva convention.

2. I'm arguing with the people that say that these people were POWs, and hence should be treated under the Geneva Convention. So I was pointing out there falacies in arguement, not that the people should be tortured.

3. So since I say it's ok to water board a terrorist who is killing many innocent lives (not just our troops), that I'm also in support of the Holocaust. WOW what a leap, even for a wacked out liberal.

4. You're a tool.

I am so heartily sick and tired of reading the comments of people who are “Shocked,” and “Appalled,” at the “Barbaric Techniques” utilized by the “agents and contractors” of our government. People need to wake up and realize that the world as we know it HAS changed. We can’t presume to go back to the way that things once were. Our “Founding Fathers”, lucky for them, couldn’t possibly begin to fathom the world that we are faced with today. I agree that torture techniques have hardened our enemy against us, but I would rather harden the enemy, and subsequently CRUSH them, rather than our great nation become a left-minded, group of people with their collective heads stuck in the sand, who can’t imagine the concept of becoming brutal with a people who have no compunctions about blowing away civilians regardless of their age, sex, color, creed, or nationality.
War fatigue is one thing, but this “Great Nation” that we like to call ourselves, in the last few years has not been so great. You can’t simply blame Bush or Cheney, Rumsfeld, or whoever else for the ills that plague us. We like to tout ourselves as being so “civilized,” but it’s that very civility that makes our enemies perceive us as weak. Our enemies have to see this Nation as one that, yes abides by rules, but they also have to know that if we are pushed beyond a certain point, (the point where rules no longer apply), to do that with us would lead to results so awful, that no one would ever want to push us to that point again. The problem is that our “great nation” is a muddled mess comprised of so many people who have never served a DAY in the defense of their Country, but are more than happy to bask in its freedoms, lap up its luxuries, and then have the audacity to bad mouth its policies without having a clue themselves as to how to fix it’s problems.
I’ve heard the word “Orwellian” and “Police State” used to describe us. It’s a frightening concept to your average person, but we can’t simply stay the “Open Door” Country we once were. If we stay that way – other countries who hate us will take that openness, and use it to hurt us.
We have to accept that torture, unfortunately, has a place in this world. The countries that hate us are more than willing to use it to further their ends. We need to loosen the reigns on our Intelligence Agencies, and give them the operational freedom to do the things that need to be done, without having oversight from people who apparently have Rose-Tinted glasses stapled to their faces. And we need to cease media coverage for everything that happens … sometimes ignorance for the masses equals collective bliss for the country. I’m sorry, but your average American just wants to live in a happy dream world painted in fluffy-pastel colors. It’s better that those type of people are kept in the dark, while the few select people, who truly keep this Nation safe, do their jobs out of the spotlight of the unenlightened many.

Once again... am American who is alive because of the techniques utilized by President Bush. I'm getting tired of watching everybody whose lives continue on because of the methods used by Bush, yet they continue to bash him.

Hey Aaron let's not call terrorists "Freedom Fighters" or "Muslim Extremists" let's call them what they are terrorists.

Hey Giovanni

Why don't you try proofreading what you wrote. I happen to have a Masters in History and found your response nonsensical. One basic premise that people do not seem to get is that acting like them makes us like them, undistinguishable. If we claim to have a moral highground, then we should protect it. If we are proud to be as barbaric as our enemies with should declare it without hypocrisy, but we should not try to have it both ways.

Rob W.: Funny how that also coincides with the Surge!!!! Oh snap, the other side having FACTS!!!

Stone (USMC),
My friend you are right!!! We have seen the enemy and the enemy is us!!!

Waterboarding does not cause pain. Discomfort sure. Wonder if slowly sawing off ones head like Nick Berg or Mr. Pearl and many others. Or hanging like some of our soldiers were. HUMMMMM! Our military, CIA or whomever have saved lives getting information and thats proven. Obama can release the Memos stating so if he would.
If we did not get information while getting rid of Hitler then how many more millions would he have slain, torchered, maned and the list goes so far on we will never know. Yes War is hell. I served for 14 years and would go back in the military if I was younger. In war we NEED to gather any kind of information we can. NO, we cannot just put a bug or play heavy medal in their cells. It takes alittle more and thats the way it is. People, you need to know we cannot bend over backwards, bow down to the Radical Terrorists Muslims or whoever that want you, your family your friends and your countries heads on a platter. They want this country along with Israel our ally blown off the map. What do you need to get it. Another 911, hitler on the rampage. Them coming to your door, dropping a dirty bomb in the middle of Phoenix or other city. These radicals are brought up with the thought that we are dirty, nasty scum and have no right to be alive PERIOD. Get with it people before its too late. This United States of America needs to remain solverign and we will protect it to the end. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

So Dale: You're not culpable of torture if your family is at stake, however if other people's families are at stake, well then they had options. Spoken like a true liberal.

Also what most people are argueing here is the "FBI said". Well there was a reason the FBI was replaced in these methods, because they were inept. What information were they getting? I'm seeing a little bit of "revenge" at being replaced here. If you asked a discouraged fired employee what he thinks about his company, you really think he'll give it a glowing reveiw? (Look a metaphor that doesn't involve Nazi's, Racism, or Stalin.... hmm wonder how my point will get across)

The fact is that America does torture. Anyone who believes otherwise does not know history. Civil war prisoners on both sides were tortured and mistreated. US Marines in the Pacific and GIs in Europe often shot Germans and Japanese rather than take them prisoner. In Europe, whole populations of German towns were made to walk past dead bodies just to rub it in their faces...NVA prisoners were routinely blindfolded, and tortured during the Vietnam War.....Torture is part of war....Let one nation who has not tortured stand up! The Germans? Not...the French? Not....the Russsians? Not!...the Iranians? Not! And now we are supposed to get all worked up because some murderers got water poured on their faces? NOT

What good is a free and democratic nation, if it is built upon the torture of individuals, even if we consider them the most despicable, lowest form of life?

I do not support terrorists. I do believe we need to extract information from them to save others.

But to bend our sense of what is right in order to mis-treat anyone is just not our way.

And yes, the way we treated, and still treat, Native Americans, and African Americans (and others), is not the intent of the founding fathers, as hypocritical as they were.

Torture is wrong.

Those who use the excuse that terrorists do not count under the Geneva Convention and other anti torture agreements that we are a party to because they are not uniformed soldiers, are you saying that they are not human beings? I thought human rights protections applied to human beings regardless of who they are. If we say we should torture because they do, how are we any better than they are. I think the issue is not one of what we did, its an issue of who we are. Are we a people who torture or are we not? Seems pretty straightforward.

What is wrong with our country, our military should do whatever it takes to get the information we need to protect our country. I could care less what they do to the terrorist, if it helps protect our children DO IT!!!! I have two sons and both of them serve this country we all love. What are we suppose to do, ask them PRETTY PLEASE, Give us the information about your fellow terrorist who are out to get us. Are you MAD!!! Kill them before they kill us, if i am not mistaken they started this fight. Is there a such thing as fighting fair, hell no, you will get your ass kicked everytime.. I certainly hope people like those who are critizing the tactics our military used are not the ones protecting MY COUNTRY, MY KIDS!!!

what is the big deal? waterboarding terrorist? they would saw your head off slowley. not just yours but your children first before your eye's. Got no time to cry for them. there is one program that needs reformed and that is A.C.L.U. and the bleedin heart pup's that feel sorry for those who would brutally murder our loved one's needs too catch the next boat out of America. Good riddence too them.

A ruin of a nation starts within. The notion we can conveniently justify tactics that have been clearly debated and made illegal by all nations with the signing of the Conventions, we're heading down a perilous road.

We lose our moral standing in the world with trying to export democracy around the world – as if we have the right in the first place. Definitely, we can be a beacon of moral compass in this regard, but when we begin to rationalize – out of fear, torture or any other enhanced interrogation tactics, we lose.

What a pathetic wussified nation we have become. They put a plastic baggy and some water over the face of the MASTERMIND OF 9/11.....Boo Hoo!!!! And shame on Pelosi and the dems who knew all about it suddenly changing tunes and playing dumb. What a disgrace.

Frankly just reading this comment thread is torture.

Hey Steve,

Last I checked we don't BEHEAD our enemies. We are NOTHING like them, despite what ivory tower guilty liberals want to believe.

Boy, you know a lot, Mathew Kilborn 12:07 pm. Sounds like you were there. Or maybe talked with the interrogators. The interrogator I listened to from Iraq, via a 20-min interview on CBC, was responsible for extracting the defining info that nailed the head of Al queida in Iraq. Neither he nor his team used torture. They used brains and creative engagement while others around him were trying torture. He got more from his prisoner in 20 minutes than the rest did in 10 hours. Clear your heads of vengeance and violence, people. Use your heads. Torture is NOT effective, extracts bad or minimal info, brings down the name of the U.S., and poses a danger to our servicemen. Bad on ALL fronts.

Oh give us time "realist" give us time... Seems like we are on a VERY slippery slope here.