Bush-era memos vindicate Abu Ghraib soldiers?

When will everybody stop using the term "enhanced interrogation techniques" and call it what it is - torture. Pure and simple torture. This is one of the most disgraceful periods in American history, and the use of euphemisms and and nicknames does not exonerate what Bush/Cheney gleefully authorized our soldiers and agents to do.

Those two chickenhawks - Bush and Cheney - are war criminals and should be prosecuted as such. Cheney especially - Bush was more of a lamebrained frat boy drunk with power who probably never really understood what it was he was doing. Cheney knew all too well. And, judging by his recent strident comments and pathetic rationalizations, he enjoyed it.

Karpinski still refuses to accept the fact that she was derelict in her duties. The photos that she allowed to be taken while she was in command were not part of an controlled interrogation process. They were the result of immature soldiers without command supervision.

And because of her dereliction of duty, the U.S. forces in Iraq suffered a major setback that cost the lives of many more soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors than was necessary.

I don't think that retiring as a full Colonel is a punishment. She should have been busted to private and given a dishonorable discharge.

I also think that the soldiers who were tried and convicted should be vindicated also. They said over and over at the time they were following orders. I guess the bush administration thought the public would be satisfied if the threw the rank and file soldiers to the wolves and saved them selves.

On this i am inclined to agree with her; give back the lives taken from those soldiers and from her – it is becoming abundantly clear that the White House shielded itself and hung these people out as scape goats. I am neither democrat nor republican – there is no biase, Id say the same if had happened under the current administration.

I think it is despicable that the top levels of our government allowed the men and women who put their lives on the line for our country to be imprisoned and demoted to cover up their own incompetence and inhumanity. Each of the soldiers punished should get full restitution as well as compensatory damages. Bush, Chaney and their cronies in the Pentagon, CIA, and whoever else stood silently by while expressing outrage at the behavior of the soldiers need to be punished for their crimes and their cowardice.

Do not murder, do not torture, do not rape!

I thought one of results of the Nuremburg Trials was the international precedent that officers who took part in "war crimes" could not successfully claim innocence on the basis of "my superiors told me to do it." The individual soldiers may be able to be "innocent" because they may not have had training on this sort of thing (maybe), but I don't know if the General/Colonel is "innocent" because her superiors told her it was ok. I think that, as an officer, she would have been properly trained to notice something wasn't quite right about the treatment of prisoners. Even if a memo said otherwise.

What Col. Karpinski fails to realize is those memos were for interrogators, and her soldiers were MPs. Just like US soldiers are federal property, so were those detainees, She reserved every right (just as MP commanders in detainee facilities have right now) to tell whoever wanted access or who were telling her MPs what to do to go to hell.

Sure she would of got sacked for it, but she would of done it with her head held high and those stars still on her shoulders. Instead she most likely played their game, probably being promised another star if she cooperated. It got leaked out and they picked her to take the fall.

Bush and Cheney should be tried at The Hague!!

The Nuremberg Trials established that soldiers have an obligation to object to immoral or illegal orders. "They were following orders" isn't a valid defense. Karpinski is pathetic; she's certainly aware of this.

As a civilization, I thought we'd moved beyond being able to use "just following orders" as an excuse for performing injustices.

It started with Bush at the Cheeneey and Rice and the rest of the crew should be put on trial. The Constitution of America demands justice be served which means put these people on trial. This President and this Congress owe the american people this justice. If they do not put these people on trial then they are placing themselves above the law, and no one is above the law in America according to our Constitution and our laws and leaders. Lead by example.

If I was a soldier in the armed forces of the United States and I had to torture someone aka waterboarding – I would have said No I'm Not Doing That. And I would take the consequences, dishonorable discharge, court martial, whatever. Its No Excuse – I only did what I was ordered to do? Huh?

This was a case of a bored, National Guard, red necks from West VA with absolutely no command or leadership from this gender equality loser of a so-called General Karpinski. She is responsible because she was in command of the damn place.

If the government won't give you and the "bad apples" vindication.
As of citizen of AMERICA, I do! Peoples lives were ruin on those lies!

You and all that were the scapegoats of the last administration are the heros of this !!

God Bless.

Just because memos allowed torture, doesn't make those who conducted the torture innocent. They shouldn't overturn any of the soldiers sentences; instead, they should be prosecuting those who condoned this behavior...all the way to the top. Not only is this just, but it will show non-democratic nations that we do not tolerate corruption and abuse of power in democratic societies. So many of my friends who are citizens of non-democratic nations do not see a point in having a democracy when the same corruption and torture takes place without any prosecution of the people at the top. We NEED to prove to ourselves and citizens of the world that we are a great nation who always seeks justice. It's time to prosecute these felons.

Hello? "I was just following orders." was the rallying cry of the good German soldier.
The Military Manual of conduct allows lower ranking members of the military to question an order that might seem unlawful, or that it might violate the manual.
Even the lowly soldier can question an unlawful order. Yet, those good "I just follow order" soldiers went beyond their duties and tortured other human beings.
The upper echelon certainly should be punished as well as those good soldiers who chanted. "I just follow orders."
So ex General Karpinski got a slap on the hand instead of military court martial.

Col Karpinski has one great hole in her story. She was the commander of the facility. Those soldiers worked for her. For her to say that others were controlling them means either she was negligent in her command duty or she was knowlingly derelict by turning a blind eye. I just cannot take her seriously. From my point of view, she is lucky she didn't end up sitting in prison with the other seven.

As a commander, she had the absolute authority to command her people in what they could and could not do. If she failed to exercise her authority, how does she lay that off on someone else? If someone outside directed her or her people to do something improper and she allowed it, how is someone else to blame? The fact they did something improper (from outside influence, she says) and she failed to discover it shows she failed to supervise. ANy way you slice it, she's just not credible.

Unfortunately following orders is not an excuse. That is why we have made sure that other people in other countries have been put on trial for there acts, because we agreed a long time ago that being told to do something and following orders does not absolve you of any crimes.
It is unfortunate that there will always be people in the world that are so weak in nature that they will have others do their dirty work and then run and hide when the S*&^ hits the fan, but it is one thing that every person in the military has to really ask them selves. Is what I am being asked to do the right thing? If not.....you have a choice...get in trouble with the military for not following orders, or go on trial for possible war crimes., especially since what they were accused of doing went against the Geneva Convention. Neither situation is a good situation, you just have to decide what you can live with the best.

We're supposed to know right from wrong and any American soldier who follows "wrong" orders must disobey even on application of penalties for refusing an order. Given these soldiers and their commanders were held for punishment for following orders it stands to reason we must punish all above them....to the top.

Immediate presidental pardon is required if not I will never support Obama on any other issue

I watched (then) Senator Hillary Clinton specifically asking for these documents during the Abu Ghraib investigation on the hill in 2004 on CNN – she was the one asking the tough questions of the US Armed Forces Command Operations Officers. They allowed the Private and others below them take the fall when they took all of the glory. The convicted soldiers, it turns out, were following lawful orders of those appointed above them and those responsible should be held accountable.

It is time to break the cycle of rank and file soldiers being blamed, prosecuted and imprisoned for actions they believed were legal while the real culprits up the chain of command go free.

It is time we stopped screwing around and start prosecuting the Bush era war criminals. Let's be reasonable, only prosecute those people who apparently broke laws the US has prosecuted other nations for breaking. That would be torture, including waterboarding. The lawyers are a reasonable start. But there are others, such as Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Gonzalez and Cheney. Frankly, I have been reluctant to say this, but the tin-pot dictator himself, George W. Bush should also be included in the list.

So we are clear, I am a middle class business owner. I'm a liberal, but not a radical. I am a military veteran and I consider myself a patriot.

I am also deeply embarassed by what the US has become. It is time to begin setting things right.

We have held court trials, acting as prosecutors in cases that were not as egregious as what happened in the US for the past 8 years. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

Perhaps pardons are in order for the soldiers who were tried and convicted of these atrocities is in order, I'm not so sure about that. The US has never allowed the "I was just following orders" defense to stand in international trials –so I'm not sure about that. But I am morally certain that if these soldiers are guilty (and even if they are not) then those up the chain of command are also guilty.

Pawns in a chess match.

Orders or not, torture is a violation and those soldiers SHOULD stay in prison. No pardons! Following order? That's what the Nazi soldiers said...forget it!

This is a disgrace. I have lost what little respect (and I mean it was little) that I had for the Bush administration. This just blows my mind. I am completely flabbergasted. The Commander in Cheif of our armed services just left those soldiers hanging out to dry. These soldiers suffered in ways that I cannot imagine. They have been slandered, lied about, incarcerated, and had their futures ripped right out from under them, all because our government chose to LIE. But why should that suprise us, I mean after all, all this admistration did was lie to us it's entire eight years in office. I am really ashamed to be an american right now. Please Mr. President, do not allow anyone to take you in this direction. Please rebuild my faith in our government. Please Mr. President restore all to these soldiers who have suffered because of the previos administrations lies.

There are some of you out there that may say well it was the soldiers who did it. And the video evidence doesn't lie, but any of you that have served in the armed forces know that when ordered, you do what it is they tell you to do. Why? Because if not, it will cost lives!!!!!

Brig. gen. karpinski is 100% right. punish those administration high ups (cheny and the gang) who authorized it and those officers who did execute it through low level armed service personnel knowing fully well that those actions were illegal and brutal.
rescind the dishonor/demotions/ convictions made. catch the real culprit. don't make ordinary people scapegoat.

Let me understand this reasoning, if you don't intend to cause pain then its not torture.
Therefore if we want information for a prisoner we make him watch us put another prisoner under anesthesia so he feels no severe pain and amputate a limb. Then we tell the prisoner if he does not answer our questions we will do the same to him. If he does not answer our questions we will continue amputating body parts until he does, all the while not causing severe pain. That according to Bush would not be torture.

Is she delusional? The soldiers responsible for the Abu Ghraib incident were not interrogators. She is revising history.

Honor and integrity is something the former administration know nothing about so is it really a surprise that they let someone else take the fall. Anyone who defends the former administration and don't tell me that wubba didn't know because his puppet master Cheney was the likely ringmaster of the whole thing. This is the worst kind of betrayal, to be left out to dry by the commander in chief and anyone within his administration. I hope the DOJ and pentagon investigate and everyone from the judge who wrote the opinion, to Cheney and Bush to told them what they wanted, to those who issued the orders to do this are brought to justice. We loose ourselves and what we stand for if we allow these deeds to go unpunished by those who authorized the behavior.

I call BS, Karpinski. Those seven idiots under your command were just that, idiots–under YOUR command. You failed to properly oversee your troops. Those memos had nothing to do with the abuse the detainees at Abu Ghraib endured. Nothing.

If these taticts were not torture then why was these soldiers put on triall and then put in prison. I believe that the wrong people have been put in jail. Should be bush, rice, cheney, rumsfield and gonzales sitting in prison. The romans tortured jesus, and the republicans are all for torture,so they believe that it was all right to torture Jesus. These soldiers should be released and giving a full pardon immediately. Big black eye for the united states. May the bush administration rot in hell because they sure as hell won't get in to heaven.

She's right. The real failure comes from higher up. A lot of what happened there was a slippery slope that an 18-21 yr old might not have been able to process on their own, especially when an "interrogation expert" shows up and instructs them to handle the prisoners in a certain way.

As an Army officer reading Karpinskis comments absolutely infuriates me. At every level, from the soldiers that committed the abuses, to the commanders like Karpinski, deserved everything they got. I thought that someone who reached the rank that Karpinski reached would have the honor, integrity, and courage to take responsibility for what occurred during her command. To hear her pull out the Nuremberg Defense is appalling and an embarrassment to all Army Soldiers and Officers. The soldiers should have known what they were doing was wrong, their supervisors should have kept closer oversight, and the commanders should more closely monitored their soldiers. There is certainly plenty of blame to go around, but Karpinski is no martyr and ought to take responsibility like a professional and an officer.

Response of U.S. Government officials
U.S. President George W. Bush claimed the acts were in no way indicative of normal or acceptable practices in the United States Army.

Vice President [Dick Cheney]'s office played a central role in eliminating limits on coercion in U.S. custody, commissioning and defending legal opinions that the Bush administration later described as the initiatives, months later, of lower-ranking officials.[25] The Geneva Convention, which has been ratified by the U.S. and is therefore the law of the land, is explicit and categorical in banning torture, the use of "violence," "cruel treatment" or "humiliating and degrading treatment" against a detainee "at any time and in any place whatsoever." The War Crimes Act of 1996 [26] made any grave breach of those restrictions a U.S. felony.

On May 7, 2004, United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld made the following statements before the Senate Armed Services Committee:

These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility. It is my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn't happen again. I feel terrible about what happened to these Iraqi detainees. They are human beings. They were in U.S. custody. Our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't do that. That was wrong. To those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of U.S. armed forces, I offer my deepest apology. It was un-American. And it was inconsistent with the values of our nation.

—Donald Rumsfeld, [27]
He also was quoted:

We're functioning in a — with peacetime restraints, with legal requirements in a wartime situation, in the information age, where people are running around with digital cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise, when they had not even arrived in the Pentagon.

—Donald Rumsfeld, [28]

Finally I have the answers I've been waiting for. Finally I can see what I have suspected all along is in fact the Truth. Finally we can hold the people in charge of these decisions responsible, and show the world that America does not tolerate tactics like this! I am proud of you for holding out on this despite your setbacks Brigadier General Janis Karpinski. I will forever remember your name as the noble character who stood up against the likes of those responsible for this wretched mistake. History has a way of remembering those responsible for atrocities like torture. Donald Rumsfeld, George W. Bush, Dick, Cheney, Alberto Gonzalez, CIA director George J. Tenet who sent the torturing interrogators to Abu Grahib, putting the entire war effort in jeopardy because they turned the United States of America into the bad guys. They have all run and hid, now we can pull their Ostrich heads out of the sand so we can put 'em in stockade on public streets in the USA where we will all scowl at 'em and spit on 'em in shame. I bet passing Muslims will throw shoes. You don't win the war on terror by becoming terrorists. You win it by noble means, and noble means alone. Stoop to the level of terrorists, and be forever at that level: the bottom.

I don't care what the memo's say or authorized. We in the Military are held to a higher standard and we are duty bound to stop/prevent/notify chain of command of abuses. Each and every one of us must have the courage to refuse an illegal order and accept that we may (and probably will) have to stand before a court martial to defend our actions.

You should say why Karpinski was demoted. For shoplifting and dereliction of duty. Although she was in charge of Abu Ghraib she didn't have the slightest idea what was going on there.

I can't believe there haven't been a bunch of comments on this.I never believed for one second these soldiers were doing this on their own.Being ex-military myself I know young men can do some silly things but that was way over the top and I always felt they had a little inspiration from further up.I hope they all have their records erased and restored to duty if that is their desire and that includes the General.

I agree. I never figured out how it was that the low level soldiers got blamed for this anyway. Stuff like that... while the low level soldiers may have carried out those orders, those were orders from "those in charge" far above them. By law, they HAVE to follow those orders, especially when their own government is telling them they are legal orders. (I believe military law says that if such a soldier refuses to follow legal orders, they can still be executed on the spot by on officer. It is illegal by military law to have your own thoughts on the subject of orders. You are only supposed to follow them. Period.)
These were the "fall" people who got blamed because the "people in charge" didn't want to take the fall and it would be easier on their careers if they made low ranking, voiceless soldiers take the heat for them. Its sick. She is right... change their discharges, let them out and give them back pay! They went to jail and had their lives messed up for something they were innocent of... and our government not only knew it but covered it up as well!

i know for certain that the servicemen, sentenced to their punishment should be able to hand punish every politician and general related to their punishment, even if means punishing the main man responsible, George Bush, the past President. Hint that where they should start. Tks

I agree with BG Karpinski wholeheartedly. I refuse to acknowledge her reduction in rank because I believe it to be based on illegal charges. How do we fix this? These people's careers were ruined, their relationships ruined, their entire lives ruined. How do we undo all of this? I challenge the media to report these revelations as long and hard as they reported the original reports based on the photos! So, CNN, will you lead the way? I challenge you to do the right thing!

As a former Intelligence Sergeant of the 290th Military Police Brigade (deactivated in Oct. 1985), the predecessor of the 500th Military Police Brigade, (Karpinski’s unit) I believe that the Bush-era memos had nothing to do with the sophomoric behavior of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. The chain of command in such a unit is very short: An Intelligence Sergeant, his supervisor, the G-2 Intelligence Officer and his superior, the commanding General. Karpinski said: “The soldiers were receiving instructions from people who obviously had experience at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, or Bagram Air Force Base, or somewhere in between.” Regardless of who else may have been attached or assigned to her unit, she failed in the proper command of her unit and she is making excuses for her own ineptness and incompetence. She got off lightly with only a reduction in rank.

Although her solders did ill repairable damage to the image of the United States, they should get a pardon if any are still in prison but they should not have all of the convictions overturned or their dishonorable or bad conduct discharges overturned.

Here is a definition of torture:
A condition in which the Subject begs to be killed so that they will no longer suffer.

All else is an uncomfortable situation, harassment or humiliation.

Trouble is, since Nuremberg we don't allow "just following orders" as a defense for committing these kinds of serious crimes. The U.N. Convention Against Torture (signed and ratified by the U.S.) specifically states that superior orders can't be used. While the memos properly place blame on higher-ups, they do not exonerate people who committed the crimes.

Right-on General! Hold them to it. Require just desserts. Don't relent until both the line-level soldiers and yourself are fully vendicated and then compensated. A very large compensation, by-the-way.

And so if those who were already convicted of these crimes have their convictions rescinded... then who should be convicted instead?

Didn't people like Donald Rumsfeld give testimony in the case against the soldiers at Abu Ghraib? If these ranking officials knowingly lied in their testimony isn't that a separate federal crime of perjury?

I want my government to protect me and the constitution at the same time! It's not hard to obey the law, I manage to do it every day.

I think the feelings of shame are FAR from over here. Shame on the Bush administration for creating this issue and shame on us all for allowing them to do it.

John:

When you asked "What do you think should happen as a result of this...?" you may have overlooked a critical premise that needs to be fleshed out; I wanted you to drill her with the following: "Are you maintaining, Ms. Karpinski, that because these soldiers at Abu Ghraib apparently received instructions from others that All of their actions for which they were punished, were therefore justified under law?" Without delving into this we cannot avoid possibility that the so-called "instructions" are being used as a political red herring rather than to refocus on exactly what happened at Abu Ghraib and why. Without this, unfortunately, people may be more politically prone to simply blame the previous administration rather than to hold human beings accountable for their actions.

If Cheney and Bush issued memos authorizing such treatment of prisoners and then stood back and allowed those officers to do time for following their orders, then Cheney and Bush are the ones who need to be doing time. What a disgrace this will be if it proves true.

Soldiers receiving illegal orders are supposed to ask for the order to be stated again, clarified, and if they believe the order to be illegal, immoral, or unethical, are supposed to refuse the order. This has long been a "gray" area in military justice and ethics. Unfortunately for the junior Soldiers, their chain of command delegated this task to them. I have no sympathy for a former Brigadier General for not having the loyalty to her Soldiers to challenge an illegal order on their behalf. Where was she during the trial of Lynndie England? A military officer's duty is to not only their superiors, but their subordinates as well. I have no sympathy for this retired colonel. She took the slap on the wrist and was silent until it was in her best interest.

I am so grateful that Col. Janis Karpinski has had the opportunity to speak up, as she has, about the injustices of what really happened. All along I have felt that this was all a cover-up by the Bush administration and hated to see those prosecuted and persecuted have to bear the brunt of someone else's crimes.

I so agree with her when it comes to reinstating all of them to their rightful places before these crimes were committed, and I so hope she is reinstated to her rightful rank. Thank you all for serving.

Karpinski's plea to release the convicted soldiers is appalling. Sure, I get the fact that the memos clear them "legally," but when laws or conduct guidelines fall void of basic human rights, someone has to refuse to be the henchman. Abdication of personal responsibility leads to evil. Karpinski is advocating Holocaustic behavior.

I don’t think that orders replace common human respect for life and others. Regardless of who's fault it was, they still followed thru and as an ex Army Sgt I can tell you that there are policies in place to where a perceived un-lawful order can be contested. So, does this absolve them from guilt? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

I feel that all of the soldiers and the colonel should be release, restored, promoted paid for time lost over the last 5 or 6th years and continue their career in the military if they like. Higher authority that gave orders to them should be reprimand but not prosecuted. Yes, the torture that they used on the prisoners was a bad thing, but it is not worst than the terrorist cutting innocence people heads off and displaying them on the TV. What you think....CC

Yes Maam, General.

Congratulations for standing by your statements for 5 years in despite of all the media coverage against you and the others falsely convicted. America is behind you and want real justice served against those in the Pentagon, White House, and Justice Department that approved these evil military tactics.

The mistreatment of prisoners is a crime under both international law, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (see Article 93 — Cruelty and Maltreatment). Why isn't Janis in prison? I want to see the whole chain of command exposed. It's sad that all of these people followed their orders, didn't question the system and now have to deal with their personal demons for the rest of their lives. How are we better than the enemy when we do things like this?

This REALLY puts the nail into the coffin of the Bush administration. And deservedly so. What a black mark on the US for the past 8 years.

As Mike Dukakis said, 'The fish stinks from the head.'

Don't think for 1 minute that Sgt Graner was running the prison or even a portion of it. He is a mid level supervisor in the military who takes order from people above him. Shame on the DOD for hanging him out to dry with a 10 year prison term for doing what he was instructed to do.

The UCMJ is neither Uniform or Just. If it were then several levels of his supervisors(read commissioned officers) above him should be sitting in jail with him. The officers piss and moan because they were demoted and cry scapegoat.

As a former member of the US armed forces I'm appalled and embarrassed that justice didn't reach further up the chain of command.

Just 1 more reason that people should not work for an employer that has it's own justice and prison system.

I don't remember those soldiers ever receiving orders to do these things? Yes, torture was authorized by the Bush DOJ, but these soldiers did those things without the knowledge that were allowed to. They treated prisoners inhumanely on their own accord, and if we are talking about prosecuting Bush attorneys then we should not be talking about pardoning the soldiers who essentially did the exact same thing as the DOJ in condoning this mistreatment.

As a National Guardsman on my third deployment I am simply stunned at the former General's lack of insight into her illegal activities. Illegal orders are still illegal. These commanders and soldiers must accept responsibility for their complicity and inaction. To my knowledge, not one of them questioned or stopped such abuses...as they have a right to do so with orders that violate the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice). The travesty is that not only did the senior leadership fail in its moral integrity, everyone else down the chain of command also failed. None of these people have any honor....they speak the same language as the National Socialists of Germany....I was only obeying orders.

Shame on all of them. The era of deniability for personal responsibility continues.

This is garbage. The soldiers are guilty of the crimes they were convicted of. The legal precedent here is clear: you don't get off the hook for "just following orders."

So COL Karpinski feels vidicated? I read her book and all through the book she claimed what she repeated here, that she didn't know what was going on, it wasn't her fault, LTG Sanchez wouldn't talk to her etc. I am sure when that star was pinned on COL Karpinski's collar she was quite proud of herself. Well COL, that star meant you were a leader and had responsibility for a lot of things, not the least of which was the troops under your command. If you didn't know about something in your command, it is your duty to find out. The things your soldiers were doing at Abu Ghraib were reprehensible and claiming that the torture memos condoned and allowed such behavior is like the old Nuremberg defense; "I was just following orders." You do have three things in common with your old boss Ric Sanchez, you were both promoted far beyond your level of competence and ability, you were both promoted for reasons other than your abilities to lead and you both whined and cried when you realized there were consequences for your blatant leadership failures. I guess insight isn't your strong suit along with a profound lack of leadership abilty. Please crawl back into retirement and obscurity and quit embarrasing yourself.

I don't care of the soldiers had the Bush administration's blessing for what they did or not, they all lacked any sense of decency. They are a disgusting, brutish lot who deserve the punishment they got. If they had had any conscience they would have refused to participate in such shameful behavior. They all lack a sense of humanity. Instead of setting the soldiers free, the Attorney General should set his prosecutorial sights on Cheney, Rumsfeld and every other Bush lackey–including Bush himself!

Legally, She is right. Even President Obama said that the ones carrying out the "torture" should not be prosecuted. But, morally, the seven soldiers, plus their higher ups, should serve their full sentences. Why? Because these seven very obviously enjoyed what they did.

I do not for a moment defend the appalling conduct of Bush administration officials, but then-General Karpinksi was in command of a prison, in a Muslim country that our country was occupying. She was in a position to know how those photographs, or reports of such treatment, would be perceived by the population. Many surveys suggest that they are the single most powerful recruiting tool for Al Queda in Iraq and other extremists who target American soldiers. Colonel Karpinksi had a responsibility to object, loudly and repeatedly, to conduct that has very likely led to the deaths of Americans. If CIA contractors or other out-of -control military interrogators were violating the chain of command in her prison, she should have stepped in to stop it. Other soldiers, including military lawyers and other interrogators, put their careers at risk to publicly object to this conduct. Karpinski began complaining when she was targeted in the investigation.

Karpinski is a scapegoat, as were the soldiers under her command, but that doesn't mean that she has no responsibility for what occurred under her watch. There is no defense for "stacking prisoners up like cord wood" or rigging someone for electrocution. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation, let alone see proof of what Karpinski did to respond to events that occurred on her watch.

Karpinski is right that her soldiers had a right to use those memos in their defense, as possible mitigating evidence. But unless she's claiming that SHE was instructed to treat prisoners this way, I'm not clear how the memos mitigate her own conduct.

COLONEL Karpinski refuses to accept responsbility for what is so clearly her leadership failure, an embarassment to the military, and a setback for operations in Iraq. Clearly, she had no idea what was going on in her "command" (I use the term loosely) – if these processes and procedures were acceptable, then why were the actions only taken by a few and isolated to one small group under her command? I am very confident that no one authorized your preganant (yet another one of your leadership failures – how does that happen??) soldier to put a dog's leash on anyone. Further, why, if this was acceptable, was one of your soldiers so offended that he felt like he needed to send his photos outside of the command? Clearly he did not have confidence in you or your subordinate leaders. Make whatever hollow argument you want COLONEL Karpinski – you deserved everything that happened to you as did those soldiers; the thought of realeasing them from prison is foul and disgraceful. As for you, if you did not want the responsiblity, then you should have stayed home and retired a lot sooner. We are trained to know what is morally and ethically right – the VAST MAJORITY of soliders, sailors, airmen, and Marines are not taking these actions, therefore it is clearly wrong and should have been recognized as such. If you would have gone out and visited your COMMAND at night, during the day, and conducted inspections, you would have known this was happening and you could have stopped it. You failed and they failed – I wonder how many lives were lost due to retaliation from Iraqis for these crimes? Would the Awakening have occurred sooner if this had not happened? You bear that burden.

So, are these post mortum excuses for abuse the same as the German solders in WW2 who killed American POWs and slaughtered Jews and Poles in the Death Camps ? Lt. Calley et al. Since when is the "standard" to be......" with intent to cause.... " ? Did that apply when we put German solders on trial ? What is the "intent" of waterboarding ?

Gen. Karpinski,

I know that it isn't my position to apologize for their actions, but I want you and the soldiers under your command to know that I'm sorry for what happened. I would join you in demanding recognition and reparation for the wrong-doing that has happened to you as well as a probe to determine who allowed you all to be thrown under the bus like that. Is this the message that U.S. military commanders wants to send to the potential new recruit?

How could this woman feel that the torture memos are some sort of vindication for her or any other soldiers involved in Abu Ghraib?!? What lack of remorse and disregard for human dignity! What an insult to any common person's sense of morality and justice! Her comments are outrageous!

In no way do the those legal opinion memos excuse the kind of savage brutality that occurred at Abu Ghraib. Threatening inmates with dogs? Forming human pyramids of naked, hooded prisoners? Telling an inmate that they will be electrocuted if they lower their arms? Killing some inmates, and taking pictures of gleeful soldiers above the corpses of the inmates? That is beyond criminal; that is subhuman.

To attempt to spin those legal opinion memos as a defense against becoming animals and losing all respect for human life adds insult to injury. How could any person with any morality whatsoever not be haunted and deeply sorry to the point of begging for mercy after having done what she and those other soldiers have done?

Pension? She should be in prison right now! What happened at Abu Ghraib was horrifying and evil. No legal opinion can provide forgiveness for her and those other soldiers...

Former Bush administration scoundrels are all over the media airwaves telling anyone and everyone who will listen, how proud they are of their torture record and that the current administration's respect for the rule of law when dealing with torture is all wrong.
Where was this current unmitigated bravado and pride at the time of Abu Ghraib? They did not vouch for their own actions they condoned, and then engineered others to take the fall. Cowards!
Just one of the innumerable examples of why the Bush administration will live in infamy.

BG Karpinski is wrong now as she was when the scandal first broke. Her answers here even fail to link anyone in Abu Gahrib with the memos (she says "had access to" and mentions all these different places people may have come from). But worst of all is no one is stating the obvious. She and her soldiers were running a prison. They were not interagating the prisoners. The photos were of prison guards doing stupid things – a unit that was out of control. A great article was written a few months after the scandal broke about how this unit was so undisciplined before even getting to Abu Gahrib that you could have predicted they had trouble. The memo speaks of water boarding – the photos are of stupid soldiers posing with naked prisoners – not conducting interrogations. BG Karpinski should be ashamed for continuing to shirk her responsibility as a commander – she failed to keep her soldiers in line and the United States suffered gravely because of it.

This woman just does not get it. Soldiers under her watch tortured detainees. In no way does this memo justify what her soldiers did as GUARDS. Guards are there to guard the prisoners not to carry out interrogation techniques. Maybe if she had did her job correctly there would have been a clear cut line between the roles of guards and interrogators. They should take another rank away from her for even making these comments.

As a retired member of the armed forces, I saw this whole blame game against Brigadier General Karpinski and the troops that were ultimately convicted by the press as a travesty of justice of the worst kind. These soldiers were doing their jobs and exploited by these Other Government Agencies (OGA's) to take the fall for their brutal tactics. General Karpinski was kept in the dark about what was happening and the soldiers working at Abu Ghraib were forced to work under horrible conditions or face court martial for dereliction of duty. These soldiers should be granted full pardons immediately and along with General Karpinski deserve a public apology along with an immediate return to former rank and all the privileges deserved by True American Hero’s. I never stopped believing in you and your troops General and God Speed in all your future endeavors. The real cowards above and beyond the pay grade of General Karpinski that remained quiet and hung these soldiers out to be scrutinized by the world deserve to be in jail. Now that the truth is out, they should be prosecuted and held accountable for their actions. Let them be publically shamed for disgracing the United States Military in the face of the World!

I think these soldiers should have all charges dropped. You can't give them back 5 yrs of their lives but you can give them back their respect. The lower enlisted soldiers were only following guidance given by their chain-of-command. Let's see if Obama will give these pardons.

Janis Karpinski exemplifies the type of soldier that should be demoted and drummed out of the service. She was a brigadier general, which is far too high of a rank to use "I was just following orders" as an excuse... and any soldier that tries to defend the use of the torture described in the memos spits in the face of the numerous service men who were subject to the same abuses by our enemies in previous wars; enemies that we rightly labled as criminals because of such actions. She should have been keeping her own house in order when she was in charge, and now that the memos have come to light, she shouldn't be demanding clemency, she should be apologizing for her and her mens' behavior, and demanding that everyone implicated in the memos face the same level of scrutiny and punishment as she and her men did. That would be the honorable thing to do.

follow this story, it will lead back to high ranking politicians with big pensions who covered this up. You know destroyed peoples lives to protect criminal activity, cloaked as patrioism. Like Watergate! You remenber that!

Why are you giving airtime to this woman? She didn't get in trouble because of improper interrogation. She got in trouble because her leadership was so abysmal that she allowed people like Lynndie England and her boyfriend to run roughshod over basic human decency. The pictures of naked prisoners stacked up or performing simulated sex acts aren't images of improper interrogation – they are proof that the situation at Abu Ghraib was so out of control that even the smallest of small fries were taking liberties with other human beings. Col (ret) Karpinski should be happy she didn't get bounced out of the Army with a dishonorable discharge.

Always knew the CIA and other entities had a hand in this and yet no one stood up for the regular soldier, no one they were just left out to dry on their own.

First, she isn't a General, she's a Colonel, having been demoted for her disgustingly poor leadership.

Second, the memos authorized CIA operatives to use enhanced interrogation methods, they did not authorize dirtbags like Lindy England, or other young Army privates to stack naked Iraqi men into piles or to put them on dog leashes.

The fact that Colonel Karpinski thinks these memos were addressed to her rogue troops (whom she never supervised at 2AM) is the reason she was demoted. She is a disgusting person and shame on CNN for giving her air time.

Wrongs aren't wrong when they're done by Good People such as ourselves.

Janis Karpinski was a soldier doing her duty as required by her commanders. It is obvious that she disagreed but followed orders. She and the people under her command who carried out orders that they disagreed with should be pardoned. Soldiers who took too much glee in the tortures should not be forgiven. It might be hard to determine which pardons are required but the effort should be made.

She was the commander. NO matter what the orders, she was responsible. To blame others for what happened under her command is pathetic. She;s worthless as a leader. She never checked on her troops. Now she feels vindicated? After her book deal? And her soldiers in jail? What army was she in?

"They were just following orders."
Very nice.

Wrong Col. Karpinski.

In my military career I have had to refuse illegal orders on two occasions. I took the hit and kept on going. An illegal order is still illegal no matter who gives it... the president or a captain. You or any of your peers could have stepped up and said NO!.

General Karpinski should have been court matialed for the incident. The prior convictios should stand as they are and any other leaders of the soldiers should also be court martialed. As a leader in the military it is your job to know what is going on. Saying "Well I didn't know" is a failure on her part. She failed her subordinates and so she should face punishment along with them. When I was in the army, as a leader I accepted full responsibilty for my troops. It was my job to insure that they knew what they were doing, how to do it correctly and within regulation. If my soldiers were unaware of their responsibilities I failed them.

I am not aware of all actions taken in the prison. However as a 30 year military NCO, I feel we need to do, without permanent damage to the prisoners, what we have to in order to attempt to stop our folks from being mamed and killed. The folks so much against this type of "torture" should be able to look at photos of their relatives after being attacked and killed and be able to be subjected to the dangers our sons and daughters in uniform are subjected to daily. "GET REAL".
I will not go into the subject of: we should not be there-what type of folks we had in charge to allow our military members including the one star demoted to be found guilty of doing what we needed to do- Clean up the mess-put the blame where it belongs and keep keeping on!!!

It's great to see a general attempting to stand up for her soldiers even after they have been out of the Army for years. Unfortunately for the general, her soldiers were MPs, not interrogators. They were abusing detainees for entertainment and not as part of an interrogation plan to gather intelligence. These memos would not have applied to her troops.

What this former general had to say really rammed the point home for me.

Several years ago, the folks behind these memos condemned the "bad apples" following their orders. That's as close to a confession as it's going to get.

The Bush White House is responsible for this, not Janice Karpinski, or Lynndie England.

Mr. Bush lied when he said that "America does not torture".

He knew we were torturing.

These soldiers were never given direct orders to torture the prisoners so they were not following "order". They were following "suggestions" made by civilian contractors and enjoying it. That is why they stay in jail and get no pardons – the col. should be thankful she isn't in jail too.

What I find funny in the first place is while Al-Qaida goes around chopping peoples heads off, bombing public places, we're reprimanding soldiers for torturing terrorists to get info out of them.

General Karpinski was in a no-win situation. If she had defied orders, she would have been sacked and disgraced. By following her orders, she was sacked and disgraced. In either case, she would have been fighting to get back what was taken away from her. That is not justification for "just following orders," but it's easy to see that she was painted into a corner by the Bush Administration. As for the soldiers, I always felt that they were the sacrificial scapegoats. They weren't completely innocent, but the fact that the buck stopped primarily with them was a disgrace. As bad as I feel for General Karpinski, I feel worse for the soldiers. Their punishment was more severe. I don't feel that they were more culpable. On the other hand, the people who were ultimately responsible were never called into the light of day. I don't believe in witch hunts any more than anyone else, but the masterminds of these crimes against humanity need to be held accountable. If we fail to recognize the wrong here, we will have truly abdicated any right to speak for the humane treatment of soldiers.

Bush and Cheney should be tried as war criminals. Plain and simple.

What alot of people are missing who are pointing the blame about certain rules to torture and conventions. And about the troops taking pictures. Is that the reason Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld didn't put MP's in place to run those interogations is because they didn't want anyone questioning what they were doing. These soldiers were tried by the military uniformed code of conduct. I'm sure RESERVIST. Didn't pay much attention to the part where your allowed to question a superiors ordes if it breaks the Geneva convention or you could be held accountable for breaking a superiors orders if it breaks the convention. HOW CAN BUSH/CHENEY/RUMSFELD. Get in front of people and say they love our troops. AND THEN KNOWINGLY SEEN THEM TO PRISON FOR FOLLOWING ORDERS. OR MAKING THEM PAY BACK THEIR PAY FOR A YEAR. THIS IS DISGRACEFUL.

Military leadership today is pathetic. It nolonger knows how to take the "hard right" over the "easy wrong." I am happy to see these soldiers vindicated. Karpinski needs to get her General rank returned, and all those imprisoned soldiers, released, and if not re-instated AND promoted because of missed time in service, they should all receive a comprehensive severence package.

I spent 20 years of my life defending this country with no regrets and would do it again in a heart beat. What the Bush Administration did was wrong and everyone of these soilders should have their convictions overturned and be compensated for this injustice. The Colonel shows the highest form of dedication by still supporting the troops she served. Those of you that still wish to persecute them need to know only one thing. They were doing exactly as they claimed all along "Following Orders" For those of you that claim to be from the military you know, "First follow orders, then question."

The was a failure of leadership here. Either the command looked the other way and didn't know what was going on – or – observed it and condoned it by failing to act. What were these Soldiers punished for? If what they did was within the scope of the 'Bush/Chenney letters' than all charges should be reversed and an appology issued.
If the current administration says waterboarding is illegal, then someone needs to go to trial or receive a presidental pardon.

Karpinski should not use the memos as justification for what occurred. With or without the memos a Brigadier General should realize that this was torture. If she does not realize this was torture, then it shows her advancement through the ranks was most likely due to her sex and not her qualifications. She had to have been a paper pusher her whole career and I would say lacks the true qualifictions to lead troops in war.

The troops also knew what they were doing was wrong, but they enjoyed humiliating others. This is no different then college hazing – the people know it is wrong, but as a group activity justify it.

"When will everybody stop using the term “enhanced interrogation techniques” and call it what it is — torture."

Waterboarding is not torture!

Having your eyes gouged out is torture. Having bits yourself burned off is torture. Having your arms and legs broken is torture. And so on to a vast number of things I won't describe here.

The defining characteristic of real torture is that it leaves the victim desperate to die–but unable to. It's a condition so horrifying that Galileo, in the seventeenth century, gladly accepted a sentence of what amounted life in prison after having been merely shown the torturer's equipment.

Read a little of the techniques of the Spanish Inquisition before you start running around yelling "torure!"

First off for those who doesnt know, a General is last in the chain of command, I have read a lot of comments trashing the General and the soldiers. Its easy to sit on the outside and judge the inside, being in the military and pretty much any other company you have to follow a code. It's easy to say they didn't have to follow this and that order, their careers would been doomed and they would still received dishonorable discharges for refusing to obey orders. I don't support the soldiers actions, but it does support that torture was authorized. It's the way the punishment was carried out thats the most troubling, the ones at the bottom received the most severe punishment while the ones at the top get no significant punishment. Being reduced and allowed to retire with full benefits isn't punishment that's early retirement. Being reduced to lowest rank, jailed, and given a dishorable discharge is excessive punishment, I think they should been still allowed to serve after they completed their punishment.

No, its not funny.

Maybe you, Kevin, want to stoop to their level, but I don't. Maybe you want America to be like North Korea, or other countries that torture, but I don't.

This is America. We are the birthplace of freedom of democracy. Our ideals have always been higher, regardless of what has happened around us.

During the fight against fascism, we didn't become fascists. During the cold war, we didn't become communists. I am not willing to throw away our higher standards, our morals and our idealsand become torturers and murderers.

Persons in the military have the duty to disobey unlawful orders.
That should have been learned at Nurnberg.

There are many of us alive because of this so called torture. Humiliation and scaring someone isn't torture in my opinion.
Why doesn't everyone get up in arms about what our enemies do to us. Given a choice you would take US interrogation tactics to those of our enemies anytime. I don't know how many of you served in the miltary, but I know in the Marine Corps you follow orders. Especially in war. These people were Army, but I would suspect its the same way. Pardon them, and drop it. If things were your way there would have been many more attacks of US civilians in this country. 911 wouldn't have been the first big one.

What you good people are forgetting is that these people are trained from day one to "follow orders". It is beaten into them from the minute they get off the bus. They look to their commanding officers for direction. The Bush administration went in the wrong direction. It always returns to the fact that the people who are at command should take responsibility for their actions and decisions. This did not happen.

I don't think Kevin meant "funny." What he meant was "peculiar," or even moreso - 'par for the course."

I want to say, that these memos do support the claims made by the Soldiers who bore the brunt of blame for Abu Ghraib and they should have been released a long time ago. Here is the issue; everybody says give those that were punished for their actions back thier lives and over turn the convictions etc. The problem with that is that one of those Soldiers who was convicted will never have his life back, due to the fact that he was killed in Afghanistan; working as a civilian contractor still defending this country even after the entire country threw him to court of public opinion, which called him a coward and criminal. He died doing what he felt was right and doing what he believed he had too do try and move past Abu Ghraib. So I ask all of you that do not know what we the Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen do and sacrifice on a daily basis (was going on even before 9/11 and OEF/OIF) to keep this country safe so that you can have your opinions to let us do our jobs and keep the wolves at bay. If the methods seem harsh too you or you object too them, sign the paperwork and try to change the system from within, dont just complain about it while sitting in the comfort of your local starbucks. If you dont feel that you need to do anything about it then stop complaining about it and go about your lives. Becasue you complain when we do our jobs and then you complain when we dont and something happens, choose a side and stick too it. The groups and individuals that oppose this country will never be as fair or as kind to those that they capture or question, I have still yet to see the US Military or Government cut someones head off on camera. So I will leave you with this.
"People sleep peacefully in there beds at night, because rough men stand ready to do great violence on their behalf."

We may be missing the point here. Remember, these were prisoners who would blow up our troupes and their own country men (women & children included) and help hide the identity of others and their plans to kill. None of them were killed or physically injured. Psychologically damaged, scared, & degraded maybe, but not killed..

Don’t you wonder why, compared to all other wars, so few of our solders have been killed or wounded? Don’t you wonder why there have been no further attacks on US soil? The Bush rules and our great soldiers have been protecting us.

Do you think you are safer now with the Obama team making CIA documents open to the public to discredit his political foes? Bush made errors as all presidents do. But, on this subject, he was right.

The thugs that authorized this torture should be tried and made to bear responsibility for their acts. The weak minded or sadistic clowns that carried out these "orders" should also be held responsible for what they did. "Just following orders" is not an excuse for this depravity! I find it troubling that individuals that wrap themselves in the flag and expound their "Christian values" are the most supporting of this type of conduct? I don't find anyplace where Our Lord said it was acceptable to torture another human being or employ "enhanced techniques" which is simply the same evil with a fancy title!

This is such an ugly situation. All the way around. In the military we have a law of armed conflict that we have to follow. It specifically disallows humiliation, torture, and many of the things that happened in Abu Gharab. Worse off, we have the UCMJ that specifically disallows a service member from following illegal orders. If they do so, they are likely to be found guilty of the crimes they commit in Court Martial. It doesn't matter if the orders came in a Top Secret memo from the President himself. Further, Officers in the Military serve at the pleasure of the President, but their job according to their oath of office is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, not the President. An illegal order from the President is no different than an illegal order from anyone else. Granted, I can imagine the tough time any General would have debating the legality of an order from the highest levels, let alone a Private or Junior NCO, such action would be highly detrimental to their military career. I feel for the folks involved in the Abu Gharab scandal, but they did break the law.

I thought the court martials from the Viet Nam War established that troops who follow illegal orders are still culpable.

It is amazing to me how many people are still all about blaming President Bush and the White House here. Let's remember people the thing that started all of this was over 2000 people Tortured, murdered by fanatics that dont understand conventional rules, laws, civil rights etc. They are not protected by the Constitution as they are not citizens and while I do agree that we need to be " better" then the other side, we will need to gather information to protect our troops and Americans everywhere. If it means depriving terrorists some sleep or insulting their manhood by letting them go naked, and it saves I American soldier I am all for it. I do agree that these MP's were not inerrigators but lets remember what caused this to escalate. Isreal has the right idea, hit us we hit you back harder.. that is all the terrorists understand.

I served with Col Karpinski and I can tell you she is one of the finest officers I ever met and I knew she had been used as the scapegoat when this story broke. I am glad she finally feels some vindication.

I'll stop calling them “enhanced interrogation techniques” when we stop using similar terms like "oversees contingency operations" and "man-made disasters".

Once again it is proven. Orders are given and handed down to the scapegoats who will pay if those orders are ever discovered. And stop saying Bush is an innocent idiot who probably didn't understand what he was doing. He's a self centered brat who thinks that underlings do not have feelings and low lifes don't even feel pain. I have been screaming almost from the day Bush went into office – why were we so against political prisoners in Russia doring the 60's when that's exactly what we are doing now? Remember the days when if you tried to question what Bush was doing you were called a traitor? A Radical?

Come on folks this is nothing new, when we were in Nam we did a whole lot worst then this for interrogation.

We did what ever we had to to get the job done, and to this day I still don't regret it.

You folks need to wake up to the "REAL" facts about WAR, it's not a game, it's not being Politically correct or nice, it's not mean't for 'PRIME TIME TV' it survival.
After you've seen your buddies laying in pieces in front of you and you just captured several of the enemy and you know they hold information that will save you and more of your troops, what are you going to do?
Hold hands when you know they are mounting another attack in several days? You just don't have the time sometimes to be "NICE".
I guess folks forget about what they do to prisoners.

This is why they call it 'WAR' give the troops a break and be thankful that on some occasions 'WE' do what MUST be done.

Mort

Another reason why we shouldn't even consider prosecuting those who outlined legal reasons justifying torture unless we are willing to prosecute those who gave the orders to "find legal authrity to justify our actions!" It's about time America be willing to prosecute the ultimate authority instead of granting them presidential pardon! Look back at it – Nixon and Watergate, Regan and the Contras, Bush and torture. Money and greed. Just because someone says "God Bless You" doesn't make them a christian!

If we take pride in our military when they do the great things they do, we must also take shame when they dont, and right now, we should all be fully lathered in deep shame. We tortured human beings when we did not have to – okay, they were our enemies – but still, if we would not stand for them torturing us, we should never have tortured them.

This period in American history WILL repeat itself if we do not take action soon. We are doomed to repeat these indecencies. Our only hope is to bring Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfiwitz, and all these "traitors" to trial and lock them up. Frankly, I would like to see all of them waterboarded just to see what their view of it might be after they have sampled its horrors.

America is no longer "great" and no amount of Republican lip-service is going to change that. In this case, our actions spoke way-louder than words and each and every American should be ashamed of what was done in our name, and with our tax dollars.

If you're going to refuse to prosecute CIA torturers, you should pardon the military torturers that have already been convicted.

"Equal justice" and all that....

Love the peanut gallery judging these troops. Don't be so quick to judge. If you could get in a time machine and go back to take the place of one of those soldiers, some of you might find out just how much you have in common with them.

Watching the scandal unfold was like reading Lord of the Flies for me – tough to accept not because of what it tells you about the characters, but because of what it tells you about yourself.

No one should be surprised that these documents finally found 'the light'. No one should be surprised Cheney was up to his neck in water.
What is surprising that a whole bunch of people knew about this and still fried their own soldiers.
Really. To allow your soldiers to take the heat clearly demonstartes the individuals that made up the Bush admistration had backbones made of jello.

I'd like to see the entire Bush administration stripped, stacked like wood, and electrocuted!

These guys and gals are the most devious thugs to ever sit in the White House. I think we will be hearing about all the crimes they commited slowly trickle into the public for many years to come.

I think what we should be doing is thanking President Bush for keeping us safe not second guessing his decisions. Have we forgotten that we were brutally attacked? We did not start this war, Islamic Jihadists did. There was no torture – let's move on.

The dictionary defines torture as inflicting pain on someone. The purpose of these techniques seems to be more to instill fear or discomfort into the detainees. This is like comparing bungee jumping with Brazilian Bikini waxing. I wouldn't like to do either one but one because of pain and the other because of fear.
Therefore to define what was done as torture is not correct, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop. Obama is wrong to tell Americans that the info can/could be obtained through other means. The question to Obama should be "if another 9/11 event happens and it could have been prevented by banned interrogation methods, will you still be comfortable with your decision?" Obama seems to be saying that the loss of several thousand American lives is less important than losing our moral high ground. And I think I agree with him but to go back and throw the previous administration under the bus like this is real cheap politics. Stop campaigning Obama and move on.

Wow, what a backlash, especially from people who were not there nor a career military member. Theses soldiers did nothing wrong except what their supervisors told them to do. Regardless of what shift or what MOS you held, there is and will continue to be a supervisor on duty. These soldiers were cut loose when the bleeding heart librals caught wind of the tactics used to gain information, not one prisoner was harmed "physically" in any of these actions. Could we say the same if you were a prisoner in their custody?

The commander being demoted to Colonel was a miscarriage of justice and she was used as a scapegoat in the whole process to shine the light away from her supervisors.

If you really think this was unjustifed, then you really don't have any clue to how to defend a nation and keep your countrymen safe from harm. maybe you should excercise your right that these soldiers help defend... your right to leave and live somewhere else?

You know, I think it's real easy for someone to be an armchair quarterback and say what these soldiers should have refused to do, or should've said when faced with performing torture on detainees. It's easy to say that when your career is behind a desk in an office in a US city.

How many average americans do something as simple as tell clients that their boss or manager is out of the office, knowing full well that your manager is standing over your shoulder telling you to say that over the phone? If the commander in chief authorized torture as a US soldier, what makes you think they couldn't get away with doing something to you if you DON'T follow orders? I mean, people keep talking about what your rights are as an enlisted soldier in the US to refuse orders of torture, but how does that mean anything when the president of the US openly and blatantly tells you to do it? Your duty as a soldier is to follow orders, not rationalize what orders to follow!

The blame is squarely on the commander in chief for these actions because under any other circumstances these soldiers wouldn't have done these acts. Pure hypocrisy!

When people were challenging the intelligence of the start of the Iraq war, people were calling it unpatriotic to question the president of the US. And then people said you were not even an American if you were against his policy and not follow his lead. Now these same people have the audacity to say that you should've just walked away and disobeyed a direct order from a General, which started from the commander in chief? Are you that naive? Try doing that to your boss on your day job, that got authorization directly from the CEO and see what happens to you!

How does proving torturers acted under orders from the President "vindicate" anybody? It just adds to the list of perpetrators.

How could anyone view these interrogation methods torture and call for criminal investigations while State laws still permit the death penalty? Does anyone really think being electrocuted is any less painful than waterboarding? Where is the President's moral stand on THAT issue? I am sick and tired of hypocrites with their double standards trying to criminalize the acts of some while excusing the acts of others. Crime is crime, and if you're not willing to prosecute all of the criminals, then how can you stand up and call for selective prosecution based on the opinion of whoever happens to be in charge at the time? If you're going to punish criminals, why not start with admitted homegrown terrorist William Ayers? Or tax dodging political apointees? This isn't criminal prosecution, it's political persecution plain and simple. The people who happen to be in charge now will do exactly what they want and mirror the behavior of the same people they now condemn. You think you have the moral high ground? Don't insult me by claiming my morals are are broken. You only look stupid doing it.

When you are a young man in the service they begin training you that you cannot disobey an order. They do not tell you that you can object, they need the soldiers to obey unquestioningly and are told that they will be held harmless of the consequences for they are acting under orders. They are not educated as to the outcome of trials as some have suggested here.

When you choose to disobey an order, you are not held responsible for the consequences, but rather your entire platoon is. So you are choosing punishment for some 30+ people. That makes you the target of the platoons discipline, not just the commanders. It's a wolf-pack mentality that keeps people from acting as an individual. The military doesn't want self thinking individuals, they want automatons that follow orders willingly and without question.

The only ones who should be held accountable are the ones who are able to act individually and those are the officers and those who sent the word down the pipe.

Karpinsky, even with her rank, may not have been in the position to refuse the interrogation tactics. Many times in these instances commanders will be visited and presented with a "blanket" letter informing the commander that the visitor be extended every courtesy and that all control of a situation be handed over to the visitor. Again, her superior may have had full knowledge, but even a Brigadeer General may not have.

Ultimately it is evident that Bush and Cheney know about this and approved this. This is yet another example of their blatant disregard of the law. They started war with lies, illegal. They approved torture, illegal. They leaked a CIA operatives name out of malice, illegal. Where is Kenneth Starr when you need him? We can spend 60 million on investigating a stupid affair and even bring up Clinton for impeachment over it, but start an illegal war, torture hundreds of people, detain Americans indefinitely for suspicion of terrorism and you too can go scott free without even the hint of a trial! Yes, become an American President, where your political party will block all actions against you, as long as you make secret alliances with nefarious corporations to make them, and you, rich at the expense of the American taxpayers! Live the high life! Be an American President!

Give me a break. Our political leadership has become too corrupt. Corporation can no longer be trusted, and neither can the leaders that we trust to protect us. We need a leader like Theodore Roosevelt again to weed out the corruption, to throw these people in real prison, not some political holding camp for 10 months. REAL prison, the reason why cons have infiltrated our political system is simple, there is no real punishment.

Yes, the people who were at the top who signed the memos and authorized and ordered state-sanctioned torture should be tried. The should, if found guilty, go to jail. Bybee should be impeached and removed from his job (not jailed, but fired) because he doesn't have the legal judgment to be a legal judge.

But this does not exonerate the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. WW2 taught us that "I was only following orders" is not an excuse when war crimes are committed. This also does not let Karpinski off the hook. She should have known what was going on in the prison, put a stop to it, and took a stand. She did not, and she was derelict in her duty.

Abu Ghraib meant that the disgrace of state-sanctioned torture was no longer a stain on the intelligence community, it was also a stain on our military.

It is terrible that our government would turn our back on our foot soldiers. Sacrifice them for political ends. Shame on George Bush, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove. Shame, shame, shame.

They sacrificied these guys, then they lined up Valerie Plame, a CIA agent, and executed her.

I consider Dick Cheney and Karl Rove traitors. They belong in a prison, and the Govt. owes an explanation to these soldiers and General Karpinski.

Torture is torture. For those using 9/11 as an excuse to condone torture, shame on you!

By the way, I was a career military member. And I still say
"But this does not exonerate the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. WW2 taught us that “I was only following orders” is not an excuse when war crimes are committed. This also does not let Karpinski off the hook. She should have known what was going on in the prison, put a stop to it, and took a stand. She did not, and she was derelict in her duty. "

And I was in the military and in Iraq when Abu Ghraib broke, and had I been at that prison, I would have been the one to break the story. I would have sent copies of the images to a family member in the states to be published if anything happened to me, and then I would have contacted my superior officers and asked what they would do to fix the problem.

I cant believe what I am reading. Judge not lest ye be judged. I spent 15 months deployed and 12 months in Baghdad and I cant judge these soldiers. How can you?

I'm not saying all of the techniques used were correct but for all of you out there that can't believe we did that, I have this question for you.... what if the information obtained from one of those interagations saved your son's life, how would you feel then??? Were happy to defend your right to complain about how we do our jobs! and your welcome! wanna be a REAL AMERICAN?? Buckle your chin strap, throw on some body armor and come stand next to me on the field of battle. Or just sit there and complain about everything so you feel better about yourself. " SUMMER PATRIOTS.. PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTETED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY!!!my end comment would be the same as " Friend of the fallen" see above. because I stand ready. How about you??

I will agree to Bush-Cheney being convicted as long as Nancy Pelosi is tried first. She knew and approved of this "Brutal Painful Torture" that we inflicted on these poor innocent people who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, bless their hearts.

I'm not quite sure what the big deal is. What would the insurgents do to us or the Iraqi Soldiers have done to us if they captured one of our soldiers. Sure the Bush/Cheney era was deplorable and we invaded a country that we had no real reason for (not proven anyway) but the psychological interrogations that took place are part of war. They were POW's and should be interrogated in as many ways possible to get information out of them so that at the minimum ONE LESS SOLDIER of the US will die. If they were able to get any information out of the insurgents at Abu Ghraib then I'm in complete support of their actions and feel that NONE of those involved should be held accountable. However, If anyone is to be held accountable look at those that made implications through memos.

From the top to the bottom, Bush, Cheney, Rice and all the other scum on the top rung should be tried, convicted and imprisoned for the crimes they committed against humanity. Just following orders does not work. We are America. We are the greatest nation, the strongest country, the leader of the world. Not so much anymore. We are now no better than the other dictators that have ruled in so many other countries throughout history. The Hitlers, the Stalins, the Husseins. We have gone up against many countries for the same crimes and now we justify our crimes by saying someone told me to. BS! Let's get the war crimes court up and running and prosecute all of the guilty parties. Start with Bush and work your way down. Bush may be an idiot, but he still authorized the torture and he was the President of the greatest nation in the world. We must, MUST, prosecute these people to exonerate ourselves in the eyes of the world, to clean up this stain that was made. And, Karpinsky, you are just as guilty. You stood by and watched this happen. We are now no better than those we are fighting, the terrorists. Our activities make us terrorists as well, no matter how you cut it.

I can only think of the end of the movie A Few Good Men when the privates are sitting at the table and judgment has been handed down. And the little white one says "we did nothing wrong", and the other one says " we were supposed to fight for those who couldnt fight for themselves". Well just because it was an order does not make it right. Just because you are a solder does not mean you do not have a moral duty to do what is right. And TORTURE is never right. If those people could not determine that on their own they deserve to spend the rest of their lives in jail, because the do not have the right to walk as free citizens in a free society.

They won't be released... you won't get your credibility back. And for that, those who sentenced you will go to jail. How is that?

You know these people are kiling our troops, and emotions are high out there. So for the soliders who messed with those people who killed americans I have no pity. Why should we treat them with respect, they do not treat americans with respect and they wont even if we are nice to them. I read all these comments bashing troops how about you grow some and put your life on the line, and see if you feel the same way

Bob Archer – you're a nitwit. Lincoln caused 400,000 American deaths just to hold the Union together. During the Revolutionary War, Americans resorted to "dishonorable" and barbaric guerilla tactics instead of standing in a line in the open to be shot. People like you will never realize the cost that needs to be paid for freedom,and protection from oppression and will always think that the Bush administration is evil for trying to protect Americans.

Just wait until the next terror attack on American soil happens in the next year or so after Obama dismantles every tool to protect us.

To Joel Rothchild Did you forget the chain of command. A lot of people would have seen these photos before Gen Karpinski. There is a real possibility She was the only scape goat. The only thing shes guilty of is being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This was and still is an illegal war. By the way I'm"Nam" Vet. and not some bleeding heart liberal

Let me educate the people who have not been in the military. If a Commander says "Go sleep deprive those people" without an official memo stating that this action is legal, then yes you can object. However if that person has a memo from the President of the United States, who is Commander in Chief of the military, saying that its legal then they have to do it. If they don't they can be tried and removed from the military. It is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. If there were never any pictures these people would have never been tried.

We should let a jury decide if the ex-president and others are guilty of torture. If they are innocent, then they will be vindicated. Unfortunately the soldiers who have been blamed for this weren't given fair trials with all the evidence, because those up the chain withheld the memos.

You people kill me! Do you want to be safe or not – lets just invite the Taliban to live right next door. Our armed forces and our President Bush did what was necessary to get the information they needed to protect this country. I'll bet those people who lost family members on 9/11 have a different view!

The Department of Justice of the United States and the Commander in Chief said these techniques were permissable. It is unfortunate that those entities were in charge at the time. They were complying with the law. To find them guilty of wrong-doing is to find that Administration of wrong-doing...unfortunately, the elite are free and the peasants are in jail with their lives ruined. It was either legal or illegal. If it was legal, than the all the soldiers should have the records expunged and entitlements restored. If it was illegal, the government should prepare prison cells for those responsible at the highest levels for authorizing these techniques and abusing their positions and power to have these actions take place. You can't have it both ways....if our country is to measured by its principles we must consistantly administer justice, whether we like it or not. That is the burden of honor and integrity.

These kool-aid drinkers need to wise up to the fact that what was practiced as torture was no more than frat hazing. Why don't you ask the families of the men who's heads were chopped off on Al-Jazir television and posted on You- Tube what the meaning of torture is. Our America is in serious trouble with you liberal panty waists at the helm. You need to take a better look around because the mentality of a terrorist is to destroy infidels by any means, and torture is what they promote first and foremost. This country needs to stop bowing to the wants of the week and feeble mindled. If not we will re-live the atrocities of past history.

Say what you will–but I am a West Point Graduate who was in Iraq for a year. With many friends in the FBI, the military, and ‘other’ agencies still, what you all do not appreciate is that these interrogations prevented over a dozen attacks in the US. Specifically, the interrogations at Guantanamo were particularly useful.

If we are going to release our tactics in some sort of apologetic admission to a world that has continuously preferred inaction and appeasement, perhaps we should have released the impact of those interrogations in terms of attacks prevented. (There were many!)

You same people screaming at the Bush administration would have screamed louder if your loved one had been killed, only to find out that we were holding people with information that could have prevented their death.

Before you shirk, just think about it. Your son, daughter, mother, father, wife, husband....dead because your government didn't take all measures necessary to extract information.

Would you still condemn him? I am not giving you BS, these are facts. There are people alive in American cities because of the actions many of you seem to rally against. Things are not black and white; events always come in shades of gray. The Obama administration's decision to release these memos is appeasement, and will absolutely cost us in American blood.

Many of you writing live in the very cities these prevented attacks were the target of.

Respectfully
Jon
Iraq Veteran-served as a Captain.

The people in the United States are screwed up in their thinking.Humiliation,sleep deprivation,etc is not torture.Cutting off a civilian contractor's head while he is still alive is torture.The United States citizens have enemies all over the globe.I have spent many years living in foreign lands and I found that the only thing that the majority of the people of the world like is the U.S dollar.They would like to see us dead.I am not a war monger and I always tread lightly in the lands of others,When I came home I really appreciated all those things about the USA that we all take for granted.The politicians need to step back and do their own jobs.The intelligence agencies and military need to be able to do their jobs without interference or else we will all be living under sharia law.YOU HAVE TO PLAY DIRTY SOMETIMES WHEN DEALING WITH DIRTY PEOPLE!!!!!

However, those solders should not have been procecuted if they were in fact doing what they were ordered to do.

Yes, there is war going on, people are dying, and as a soldier in the service of the United States of America, we have a duty to our country. But when you take pleasure or make fun of situation such as this, you are no different then what had been done in WWII by the Nazis or in other wars. As it is said….”..a picture is worth a thousand words..”.
Brigadier General Karpinski, as a commander should have known what is going on in her unit, no excuses and definitely a dereliction of duty on her part. The five that were convicted had their day in court, and I believe Ms. Karpinski should have been standing right next to them.
In the twenty plus years of my service, I always had a responsibility to County, my unit, and my commander; I don’t see any of that with this situation. It sounds to me that the chain of command was inadequate, to the say the least.

Abu Ghraib pictures showed that the soldiers ENJOYED torturing their prisoners. Even if you agree with the practice of torture, even if you believe that the soldiers were given orders, you must agree that these sadists have to be punished.

The very same Government these soldiers fight to protect and serve is their biggest enemy.........God bless all of our soldiers, past, present and future....they need God backing them, because their President will NOT. War is war, you go in to destroy the enemy. Todays civilians in a war zone are tomorrows soldiers.........take a lesson from Robert E Lee on war zone ethics.....while you try to minimize civilian damage, the others destroy you. War is War, just ask Jessica ?, the young soldier that was captured during the first few weeks and repeatidly raped by the thugs, that were really soldiers dressed as civilians. What happened to the U.S. Patriatism that was appearent in every American citizen after 911 calling for revenge. Please media show the 911 seens every day on the 5 oclock news........ so the backing down cowards will remember why we have troops there.

You can't mistake the bullying intent of the Abu Ghraib photos. We turned our most immature schoolyard bullies loose on these people, the kind of jerks who take cellphone pictures while they push someone downstairs, and there's no denying it. What those pictures show is a bunch of low-IQ soldiers getting to do anything they wanted to captive men, and if one of those boys didn't yell "Squeal like a pig!" at some point during these 'interrogations' I ain't from Georgia.

Fmr soldier, you said "not one prisoner was harmed “physically” in any of these actions. Could we say the same if you were a prisoner in their custody?" Man, that's the point – we don't want them pointin' at our prisoners and muttering 'Abu Ghraib.' Do unto others isn't a joke at my church. And Dana, um, if my boss wanted me to #### some guy with a broomhandle, I'd quit?

The excuse “I was ordered to” was not acceptable for the guards at Auschwitz, nor does it stand as an excuse today. We have the most highly trained and educated combat force in the world. As part of that education soldiers receive classes on the Geneva Convention and Codes of Conduct. As such, soldiers, from the highest General to the newest recruit, know that orders from on high cannot supersede the morals imbued in these standing orders. The hardest and often most honorable action is to stand up to authority when ordered to do something wrong. That none of the officers in this sordid chapter of U.S. military history stood by the morals the Army strives to instill is the true tragedy. These memos do not vindicate those prosecuted, it makes them more culpable.

The soldiers in the pictures were behaving badly and deserved some punishment, although I don't know about prison.

The 'general' deserved much worse punishment. Retirement as an O-6 paygrade will give her a comfy lifestyle even if she never works again. In other words, she wasn't really punished; she was simply denied a more exhorbitant retirement. A Commander should always be keenly in touch with what their troops are doing. She wasn't; she was derelict.

I fully support the use of Torture against TERRORISTS. If waterboarding could have stopped 911 I would have supported its use 100 percent. Do not torture prisioners of war representing a
country but TERRORISTS fighting for TERRORIST organizations
deserve to be TORTURED.

Time to resend those soldiers sentences. If the CIA operatives are not punished, and correctly so, then the soldiers should be allowed to have their life back.

Yes – vindicate the soldiers, after all...it's not like it's in the UCMJ that you do not have to follow orders that are immoral. Following that logic we shouldn't allow that Nazi guard in Michigan to be extracted to Israel for trial because...he was just following orders. Where is the cyanide capsule for Bush to take? At least Hitler had the common decency to do that for us! All this talk about God and Christianity in our Armed Forces and we can't even follow the morals of common goodness. No wonder the Islamic world thinks we are as bad as we think they are!

Col. Karpinski: You lost your credibility when you failed to know and understand what your soldiers were doing at Abu Ghraib. "I didn't know what they were doing," you said. WHY NOT? What were you doing during your command at AG? You obviously were not overseeing operations, inspecting facilities, or ensuring humane care for the prisoners under your care. You lost much more credibility by bowing out when requested to testify at the courts-martial of your former soldiers. (I know; I was there for their CMs, all of them.) If you were sure of your "truth," you should have been willing to testify for your soldiers. Where was your loyalty? Yes, the soldiers were shafted. That was obvious during their CMs. But you should have been there too, standing up for your troops.

bush has always said he's proud of the troops and the job they do, and a few of the gung-ho troops think bush was the best thing ever to hit this country by "keeping us safe".

i wonder how they feel now that it's become clear he and cheney set the rules, and then through the troops under the bus when they were doing as they were told. i agree with the general; where was bush and cheney to defend them when they were being carted off to prison?

Humiliation isn't torture.

Humiliation of prisoners is not right, but it's not torture.

"following orders" has not been a valid defense against crimes like murder and mistreatment of prisoners since 1947. Unfortunately, the US Armed Services don't teach that to our soldiers sailors and airmen.

The rabid BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) shown here is simply amazing.

Bush's failures are legion, from NOT securing our borders to that incredibly asinine "no Child Left behind" , to his failure to identify Americas attackers as radical islamists, to his declaration that ISLAM is a religion of peace, to his Marxist useless "bailouts" in the waning days of his administration.

BUT he took the fight to the middle east, instead of allowing the radical islamists to attack us here. It worked. No successful attacks on civilians since then.

Here's a hint for y'all. Stand up to a bully, and the other bullies leave you alone. Works on an international scale as well as a personal one. Ask Moamhar Khadaffi about it.

Now what message is sent when Hussein Obama bows to the king of Saudi Arabia and apologizes for America's successes to every tinpot dictator and whiner out there?

Another hint: it tells them that we are weak.

You asked for your "change". Hope you like it.

The Bush WH was a cradle of vipers and no one is less guilty than the other one. I was told from day one, when I was in the service for 26 years, that if an order is unlawful, you don't have to obey it. Using excuses: "the worse of the worst", "they killed 3,000 Americans", "terrorists hate America", "I was following orders" doesn't cut it. We are a nation of laws, even if Bush, Cheney and the whole criminal enchilada didn't know it and for a democracy, the Constitution must be above all ideology, private or secret agendas. We don't need to vindicate no one, they violated the provisions of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, UCMJ, and as such the convictions stand. Now we need to go after the whole Bush administration if we are to continue to be a viable democracy, otherwise, we are not any better than the Pinochets, Stalins, et al. I want my America back with its Constitution and values made whole again by punishing exemplarly those responsible for its demise.

Sorry to all you libs on the board, but this isn't torture. Torture is standing on the 90th floor of a burning building and deciding whether you want to burn to death or jump to your death. Torture is sitting there wondering when they are going to saw your head off, knowing that it is definitely coming. I really don't care what we did to these scumbags.

We are at war people. I am sorry but if torture and humiliation is what it takes to make someone talk then so be it. The next thing you people will say is prosecute a soldier who kills someone during a shootout in war. War is not nice. People die. I say the U.S. should do whatever they can to protect the lives of Americans and the soldiers who are fighting to defend our freedoms.

These soldiers should not have been prosecuted in the first place. Let them get on with what is left of their lives.

I was a soldier in the light infantry, went to the Stan and it sucked. We caught people all the time, burying I.E.D.S , almost always they are being threatened to do it, or payed, usually teenagers. We would make them stand until they couldn't any longer, then they had to walk in circles until they just didn't have anything left. they had to use their left over water bottles to urinate in when they drank all the water. All on top of missing prayer.

We almost always received info on weapons caches, I suspect many of being old neighborhood caches, it's just their culture to assume all the men in a village are fighter when need be, farmers otherwise. Except the lazy who use the Koran to intimidate people to do their share of the labor, also known as the Taliban. The Taliban are not ideological fanatics, they just thugs, like cheney and a miriad of lobbyists.

Anyway, deprivation is the only things that works, no light, sound, human contact. It's torture to be sure, any unwilling stress is torture

Seems people want to forget what got Karpinksi in trouble had nothing to do with waterboarding or any of the approved techniques. Naked pyramids were not approved, I'm willing to bet the closeness of the dogs were not approved. Electrocuted prisoners was not approved. Sexually mocking the prisoners was not approved.

I am so sick of putting my life on the line for a bunch of out-of-touch people who have no idea how the world works. Take your idealistic, unrealistic view of the world and place it firmly in your posterior.

Sadly, this former officer is mixing two separate issues. If her position is valid, she should have issued unit guidance on treatment of detainees, then supervised her soldiers' actions. Had she done that, their conduct, revealed in the photos, would not have been the surprise she made it out to be at the time.
Administration policy is one issue, but the individual acts of misconduct by soldiers under her charge are a separate concern. In the aftermath of the release of the photos, it was clear from hers and other leaders' statements that several layers of the chain of command were not supervising their troops. Our troops deserve better leadership.

You people do not know what torture really is.

Bubba,

I am guessing here, and if you are from Georgia then listen closley... If one of your family members were in the twin towers, or even at the Atlanta Olympics say, I bet you would be screaming the loudest at getting whatever information we could and do whatever it takes to make this not happen again. So stop with the "I'd quit" talk... Americans don't ever quit and military people don't know the word. If you want to defend our people (your countrymen) , our way of life going forward and this nation, then I suggest YOU pick up a weapon and stand a post, otherwise jsut say thankyou to the brave young men and women who will.

I tend to lean towards Gil's line of thinking. Given the circumstances I don't see that anything wrong was done. I think these "tortured" individuals got off pretty easy. Did you ever hear that nice guys finish last?

Being from Georgia was not a slam... it was a remark about being from the USA.... Sorry if I left that open for interpretation.

I was appaled by the events at Abu Ghraib prison, but at the same time I did not buy into the official line that it was the result of bad soldiers. I am glad to see that we have the normal assortment of ignorant individulas on line this morning using their 1st admendment right of free speech to justify and eye for and eye mentality. Unfortuently that is the mentaility that caused this entire mess.

Ulitimately, General Janis Karpinski was in fact responsible for the events at Abu Ghraib, she was in command and should have regardless taken control of the situation. The soldiers are also responosible for they should have known better, however when we have a break down in the chain of command we must ask more questions to determine who in fact was pulling the strings. So who was actually running the interigations and directing the conduct of the guards of Abu Ghraib, I do feel this is important to determine, I fear that the answer lies outside the military. I beleive that we had young soldier that wer in fact not trained as military police or prison guards placed in a position to take orders ar at very least guidance from individuals outside the military chain of command. The ramifications of Abu Ghraib are much farther reaching than just some photos and stress positions.

joelrothschild shame on you.... This is nothing more then the Bush administration calling the shots and not backing the people that carried out the order. Bush and his administration has been nothing but a disgrace to America and the world. Now their are still Rep. out there that think Bush's War was justified. I ask one question, how can we go from WMD is the cause of his war to freeing a country from an evil dictator in less then a month? Iraq has nothing to do with 911 and until all of the Rep pull their heads out and realize that you all were made a fool of by believing BUSH and of course the worst person to ever represent America, CHENEY, the Rep. party will never hold any clout again in America or the world. And I'm not a Dem either..... I AM AN AMERICAN!!!!!!!

It appears some people have forgotten what happened to the people that died on 9/11. People burned alive, crushed to deathj, etc. These prisoners are terrorists, and those dirtbags deserved whatever they got. None were physically beaten, just put through mental "torture", humiliation. I could care less what was done to them. They were beheading people, remember?

What all the helped protect SGT Darbey – Their lives were forever changed. He can not go back to his home town never given a proper military status for this actions – the accused and their company commander already had personal issues and failed leadership, and we forget who one of accusued like young children and most of thier commander and upper commander were fully aware and when the investigation came down..:we are brother MPs... why all this"... and as for the general – she should be fully accountable she was there and had the green light which started back at the US

"i was just following orders" is no excuse. the soldiers that were prosecuted are sadistic and ignorant and unprofessional and deserve what they got. instead of pardoning everyone and removing personal responsibility as if they were children doing what their parents told them, the parents should now be prosecuted.

Speaking as a service member, 'following orders' just doesn't cut it. It is made clear to all soldiers that orders which violate UCMJ protocols do not have to be followed. Standard procedure dictates the soldiers should have reported this violation of military procedure and reported it to their chain of command.

If they had done this, and documented their efforts, probably all that would have happened to them is that their chain of command would have attempted to punish them. Then they wave the documentation around and continue to scream 'shenanigans' until the press gets wind. No one gets tortured, and those responsible are punished.

This did not of course happen. The sheep followed the wolves and led this country into a dark chapter of military history.

These poor warriors we placed in prison, and degraded a General. All because they were ordered to "soften them up" . I just can't see these warriors thinking on doing this torture by their own thinking. Some one allowed and placed in their heads it's ok to do. Who's the war criminal?

To Bob A and any other person who blames former President Bush for the world's woes: set aside your unfounded hatred and pay attention to what Obama and the Democrats are doing to our Country on a daily basis. Releasing the memos should never have happened, but you get that when you have Obama trying to deflect public attention away from his socialist agenda and his administration's obsessive way of continuing to undermine former President Bush's time in office. You and others like you are exactly the kind of "sheep" Obama and the democrats want to manipulate.

Has Henry Miller ever been waterboarded, I wonder?

Anyway, whether "advanced interrogations techniques" were authorized or not, there were other elements of the photos that were just as disturbing, like the female soldier giving the thumbs up next to the corpse and stuff like that. It was above and beyond anything that was authorized and the lack of humanity being displayed by some of the posters here is examples of why the US will be at war forever with somebody. But I guess some people just enjoy death. Remember the longer the US is at war the more Americans will be killed in battle. That's the bottom line. The Abu Gharib photos may have added years to the "war on Terror".

And stop making this a conservative vs. "libs" argument. Are there no liberals giving their lives over there, too?

What would you do if you were interogating a man who knew where a bomb hidden in your own house was and your childrens lives were at stake? Would you ask him nicely, what if he didn't tell you? Would you hit him? How hard? All these questions are very relevant, and what you call the torture of a few could have verry well saved tons of innocent lives. The terrorists now know that we can't "torture" them (I say that in quotes because every other country does far worse than those memos allowed) so what motivation do they have to tell us any information now. If I were a terrorist I would now feel no obligation to give out any information, because under this new law, even slapping is considered "torture". If you want to know what real torture is ask someone like McCain or any other POW and see just how bad they treat our soldiers, we treat our prisoners better than they were treated in their own country for goodness sakes.

It is so disgusting of the Bush team to manipulate the world by blaming the saga on a few bad apples. These soldiers sacrifice their lives for protecting American’s interest, and they never expected the very top leaders to betray them. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Tenet, Ashcroft should all be in jail.

As a former soldier, "just following orders" is not a reason to be EXCUSED. In the military, I was taught that you must use your own moral compass because you could get tried either way" for following orders if the orders are illegal or unjust as well as for following orders. Unfortunately, I agree the soldiers were the only ones prosecuted because they have a military code of justice which they are o uphold. The Spooks well they are unfortunately sometimes apart from the law and the soldiers should have refused to follow their orders. You know we prosecuted rank and file solders as well as officers in WW2 for how POWs were treated.

If we do throw away our morals then we become no better then the terrorist.

Re-read the Taguba report and then think about what she said here. It is apples and oranges. The debate on torture and the activities at Abu Gharaib are not the same thing. The story and investigation of Abu Gharaib detention facility put a spotlight on her. She was busted for her deficiencies.

Sorry but "following orders' doesn't cut it. If you are ordered to massacre a school full of children, do you do it ? No you do not. Nazi soldiers were put to death for war crimes after WW2 for "following orders" at the various Gestapo camps. Following orders is not enough, sorry.

I saw a car being forced to stop by a state trooper using his car to perform the "Pit" maneuver on COPS to stop the suspect! That is TORTURE! That officer should be held accountable and the victim, a convicted drug dealer should have all of his crimes wiped from his records.

When I was in the USNavy, I was an enlisted sailor (E4/5). I ignored/disobeyed many "orders" fm E7's & higher (including officers). My justification was due to "just cause". When the order giver tried to intimidate me, I again stated my objections. Eventually, the Commanding Officer would listen to both sides of the disagreement.

The Commanding Officer would tell me:

1. Follow the order w/o question (which I would do most of the time – depending on the order)

2. Follow the order so he didn't "look bad" (which I would do & the Commanding Officer would take the order giver into his office for a very one-sided conversation & then the Commanding Officer would commend me for my ability to be outspoken as well as standiing my ground when given an order that I considered to be invalid/unlawful)

3. Ignore the order (the Commanding Officer would take the order giver into his office for a very one-sided conversation & then the Commanding Officer would commend me for my ability to be outspoken as well as standiing my ground when given an order that I considered to be invalid/unlawful)

I was lucky to usually have a Commanding Officer who respected someone who was able to make a decision (based on logic), as well as able to "stand my ground"/"speak my mind".

I would sometimes question a decision made by my Commanding Officer & was never punished for "speaking my mind". Occasionally, my Commanding Officer would "re-think" his decision due to my input.

I enlisted in the USNavy in my late 20's. I had been trained for (& worked in) law enforcement (counter-espionage, counter-terrorism, security, executive protection, private investigation, crime scene investigator, fugitive investigator {bounty hunter], etc) before I enlisted in the USNavy. Due to my pre-Navy training, I COULD NOT be intimidated..

Most people DO NOT have the ability/courage to be as outspoken as I am. Reservist/Nation Guard DO NOT experience the military the same as an Active Duty person (they would follow ANY order due to being a civilian soldier).

I DO NOT feel that the "pawns" s/b punished (they deserve "much compensation" for their sacrifice). We CANNOT judge the "pawns" until we know what threats were stated by the order givers (NJP, Courts Martial, Dishonorable/Bad Conduct Discharge, etc).

Being "part-time" soldiers", the "I was just following orders" defense is acceptable (the order givers [up to the top] should be prosecuted).

Prosecute the top persons (Bush, Cheney, all others who approved torture, etc). My experience as an "Active Duty" person, I CANNOT fault the "part-time" soldiers" who were "just following orders".

Order givers appears to have used "itimidation" on the "part-time" soldiers.

If Karpinski did not know what was going on, that would not be too surprising since she had multiple site to supervise and multiple layers of supervision who should have passed the information to her, and none of them were penalized. However, she also had a responsiblity for supervising the peace time training of the MPs, which should have told them that humiliation was not acceptable treatment.

If the MPs did not know this, then it was because of poor training. MPs of all people should know the limitations on treatment. The memos, even if they were published, would have been merely an interpretation of law and should have been challenged by someone high up in the chainl Apparently they did not reach Karpinski, so I doubt that they ever reached the Abu Ghraib crew, or they would have been cited by the defense.

The trouble is not that the squad members were punished, but that the MI unit and its chain, all the way up to whoever signed off on the program should have been cell mates and received even longer sentences.

However, the MPs should have known better. I doubt that they were shown the memos, and the memos themselves are not law but merely interpretations, and highly biased at that. The penalty

The ends justify the means, Right? How do you explain this one to your kids. In one hand you have guys here who were just doing their jobs. Then you look at Nazi Germany, I guess those guys were just doing their jobs too. Unfortunately, no matter how deplorable the orders, there are certain people who take a sick enjoyment out of the job they are "forced" to do. These soldiers deserved to be punished. DON'T TAKE PICTURES OF THE CRIMES YOU COMMIT, whether you are ordered or choose. This entire story is just sad, and the source of the entire issue remains at large.

As a veteran infantryman, I think the former General needs to just quit her whining and accept responsibility that she and her troops failed in every sense of discipline, ethics, and morals–and then go on about her life. The memos don't vindicate her or those she failed to lead and take responsibility for.

Would we want our American soldiers demeaned and becoming sexual playthings for deviants in other nations' militaries? Hell no. She has made it more likely by her leadership failure that American troops will be subjected to torture, inhumane and degrading treatment in the future. And she's so proud of herself.

This is what happens when you have people incapable of real leadership put in leadership positions. Officers get away with far too much and are held accountable for far too little. Do all Americans a favor and just go away, Karpinski. Accept that you didn't do your job, failed in your ethical, moral, and professional obligations to yourself, your unit and soldiers, and to the principles for which the nation you swore to defend stands.

Leaders who hide behind memos are no leaders at all, just morally decrepit managers looking to cover their own rear-end.

Not getting 8 hours of sleep is torture? Then my 6 month old who keeps us awake at night should be tried for war crimes.

I believe the soldiers went above and beyond their orders and were definitely wrong in taking pictures. They should still be punished. But what is revealed in the documents is something that never should have been revealed. The government's job is to keep us safe. If it includes employing tactics that the people may think brutal, then that is what they do. These things are not made known and should never be made known. President Obama made a serious security violation in releasing these documents. "Ignorance is bliss” and the American people are better off for it. There are reasons that we have Secret adn Top Secret classifications.

For the argument of having repercussions brought on our soldiers because of the scandal, better our armed and prepared soldiers than our unarmed civilians. These interrogations saved the lives of thousands of non combatants.

I've seen worse at high school hazings...

Regarding Torture, if you knew that torturing one suspect could save hundreds or thousands of lives, would you do it? It's really easy to say "torture is evil", but if you had the opportunity to save lives through this method, and you had a high degree of confidence the suspect is a terrorist anyway, I'm sure your convictions would be tested.

This is insane. This woman was put in charge of this prison and she's just trying to pass the buck as far as it can go. She claims that she had no knowledge of any of this but the people at the top of the government sent out memos telling the soldiers to do this. She was the commanding officer, she should be held accountable. The whole thing doesn't add up to me.

Soldiers have the right to question unlawful, illegal orders, yes. But they were told these methods were legal! If you are an enlisted, lower ranking soldier, probably with a lower level of education, are you going to question methods deemed acceptable based on the legal advice of adminstartion lawyers and those at the highest rank in the chain of command? I don't think so.

In response to MC, you don't get the real issues here. First, most of the people involved, at least at Abu Ghraib, had absolutley nothing to do with Sept. 11. Second, even if they did, these actions put all of our military members in jeopardy should they ever become prisoners. Why respect worldwide bans on torture for people from a country that doesn't respect them?

Bodine/MU – Actually I supported the war on Iraq because Saddam forgot the condition that ended the first Gulf War – - allowing UN inspectors inside the country. In reality Saddam made a fool of the world just like other dictators are doing now. Are you really foolish enough to believe Dictators care about peace and negotiations?

Listen to all you lame brains until you've been to war and experianced what the other side does to you, cut the crap about our military. It was in the news and showed on TV the beheadings, the roadside bombs, what we show about our miltary is mild . War is War and we are at War so get over it and enjoy what you have until they come for you.

Opinions can be such crap at times – muddled with political bias. Read JoelRothschild's post. Complete garbage with no clarity of mind. Stuck on a distracting issue while wanting to ignore the larger picture... it is sickening that ignorance is so pervasive in this country. All of these individual deserve to have their convictions overturned including Karpinski. Read the ignorance of MC, Joelrothschild, and Jon (who beleives the interogations prevented attacks), CPT (who believes in the Nixon ethos of "if the president does it it is legal)... I am just glad these ignorant far right dittoheads are now being marginalized to the edges of political discourse. Thankfully we now have competence in Presidency ability to lead vs. the 8 years of crazy that we just experienced.

It's pretty freaking weak that this woman is expecting sympathy. This crap happened when SHE was in charge of that prison. It's HER JOB to know what's going on there. If these soldiers got orders from above then maybe their charges should be dropped, but she let it happen and she didn't have any special orders to fall back on.

I cannot believe that anyone inside of our borders would really side basically with terrorist muslim extremists over our own past president and cabinet. I understand peoples dislike for Bush but come on, we strapped a guy to a board put a towel on his face and poured water on him. Now lets look at the other side, they took planes and crashed them into private and public buildings inside our borders, killing thousands of people and then claiming that they were sent by some sort of god to do it. Its ridiculous that people consider waterboarding torture, there isnt physical harm done, yes it is tramatizing but do you not think that standing in the twin towers watching a plane flying at you wasnt traumatizing? I think that they need to release the rest of the memos, the ones which show that Nancy Pelosi and others were in meetings about these interrogation techniques and that they approved or at least did not dissapprove of any of them. The other part that should be released is what information we were able to extract from these TERRORISTS. Maybe release some of the information about the planned "second wave", the plan that was to fly planes into the talleest building in LA.

As a former career military member and aircrew, I attended several survival schools including SERE, Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape. During SERE, we were subjected to "torture" techniques that had been toned down to give us experience in what we might encounter if ever captured in the line of duty. It was scary and I must say, effective. It served the purpose for which it was intended – obtain information that the "enemy" might have. Waterboarding, soft-cell / hard-cell interrogation, isolation, physical and mental "tortures" were all part of the curriculum. I have to admit it wasn't pleasant at the time but it was effective and I saw the reasoning for its' use.

Now compare the training value of those techniques and the now real-world scenarios and I am in support of any and all of those techniques. We are at WAR with terrorists all over the world and believe wholeheartedly that we need to be aggressive in our efforts to thrwart and prevent terrorist activity directed against the US. The techniques may seem extreme but compare them to what these same terrorists have done to captured US and Allied forces. How many "beheadings" has the US been accused of? How many soldiers have we killed and then drug their bodies through the streets?

For all these know-it-alls who are calling for Bush and Cheney to be tried as war criminals – PLEASE – get a life! In that I may not always agree with a course of action that our government and its' leaders take, I still support it. I do not now nor will I ever believe that any such actions are taken by a "criminal" mind and without intelligence and purpose. Yes, the intelligence is not always right, but that is another story.

We as Americans need to stand up for our country and its' leaders – not try to tear it apart by slanderous words and deeds. We have already lost so much integrity because of all these supposed "war crimes." Why must we pour salt in the wounds?

Support your country or get out. Go wrap a towel around your head, eat goat cheese, and live in a cave if you can't stand up for your country.

A 20+ Year American Serviceman – Retired and Proud

Those soldiers were not doing it to interrogate them they were doing it for their own amusement. The intent makes it a big difference. Its like saying hitting someone for your amusement is the same as hitting someone in defense. Those guards were not trained to conduct interrogations and were not authorized to do so either. All they were supposed to do is in their job title, guard. Just even trying to defend their actions she is not worthy of the title of soldier, let alone a general.

First: CNN's headline says "General: Memos Vindicate..." This woman was demoted – as a demoted General Officer, she is not entitled to, nor should she be referred to as "General."

Second: Abu Ghraib was a black mark on the Unites States military – at the VERY least, it represented a poor image of the United States to the world – but more importantly, it provided teh enemy with fuel for massive recruitment of insurgents and allies worldwide.

Thirdly: The contention that the people involved did not "intend to inflict pain" is about as stupid an assessment as saying someone who shoots someone in the head didn't intend for them to die. It implies that the people involved are so ignorant that they think people won't feel any pain under these circumstances – which is insulting to either the people of whom such an implicatiion is made or those who are expected to swallow such nonsense – actually both.

Had a real leader been in charge at the time these allocations came out and were confirmed, the entire chain of command would have been held accountable, and those responsible for developing this approach to intelligence gathering would be run out of the organization – from top to the bottom. But, because Bush/Cheney and Rumsfeld all were on board, that would never happen. This woman was probably promoted to make brownie points with women in the Service and the press, and NEVER should have been in a position of judgement, based on her clearly limited ability to process reality and act accordingly. She ought to have been demoted to a Second Lieutenant and her pension adjusted accordingly, with no opportunity for promotion. She is a blemish, a boil on the officer corps, and a disgrace to the Military men and women who serve tehir country honorably.

I think the argument could be made that the soldiers in Abu Ghraib did what they did to humiliate the prisoners rather than obtain information from them. I guess it's the difference between torture for information and torture for its own sake.

Let me tell you about torture: drilling holes in a prisoner's head, amputating limbs, suicide bombers, and of course, the jihadists' all-time favorite: beheading. Making a prisoner uncomfortable is not torture. And comparing Bush to Hitler and Nazis is pathetically sophmoric. You might feel good and righteous doing it, but you're participating in hysteria and hyperbole. Pretty much what a lynch mob does.

While the techniques approved at the highest levels of government are shameful and regretful, all should remember that Karpinski was in fact negligent in not insuring soldiers under her command were properly supervised. Further, no one in the military, regardless of rank, is required to carry out an order that is illegal, immoral or life threatening. She, along with other very senior military commanders, had an ethical responsibility here – instead, if we are to believe her account, set aside their moral beliefs and carried out the orders rather than refuse or resign in protest. Had a few senior officers resigned rather than "toe the party line" there would have been immediate scrutiny on the situation and it would have been exposed before it ever went that far [Abu Ghraib]. It is disengenuous to cry foul when she, if she is of such high character now, to abdicate any responsibility.
I retired rather than continue to follow the orders of an administration that I believed had no moral character in their methods of waging "war."

Ok. I was an Intelligence Analyst in the Army for eight years, and I have rarely been so disgusted by a member of MY Army as I am with this ex-General.

Since when did a MEMO counteract the Military Orders embodied in the Field Manuals? It is also important to remember that she and her subordinates had no knowledge of these at the time and thus cannot point to them for vindication. Their actions were criminal in terms of having and both Mens Rea and Actus Reus (wrong act and wrong motive). Had an enemy treated our soldiers with similar brutality , we would have hanged him or her (and have in the past).

Her argument boils down to: Behavior strictly against army regulations (see manual on Law of Land Warfare FM27-10), and simple common military decency, which she tolerated to occur under her command is somehow better now that she discovers that others were doing it. This is the same argument made by every criminal camp guard and commandant from Andersonville, to Stallag 7, to the Hanoi Hilton. We hanged the commandant of Andersonville and dozens of SS and Wehrmacht guards and commandants for similar behavior.

She is lucky she was only demoted and disgraced. Her subordinates were imprisoned. I am sickened by this sort of statement.

I think we really need to check the definition of torture. The problem here is that too many people have different definition of torture. Torture is defined in the DICTIONARY as "the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty." None of these "torture" techniques does that! Torture is beating a person, flogging them, shocking them, all other sorts of painful things. Causing someone to be uncomfortable (confinement in a small area, forced to stand for a long time, etc.), ....not torture. At least not by the definition the English language has decided to give that word. If that were the case, the airlines should all be put away for forcing people to sit in those seats.

When somebody has to be put in the hospital, or treated by medics after their interrogation, it's torture. If not.....probably not torture.

I find the timeline of these comments most interesting. It appears most posts against the former administration and their fruitful interrogation techniques come from people who stay up very late or don't sleep at all.....either smoking something they want the current administration to legalize or sipping from the community kool-aid jar. Of course some could come from the left coast where folks are three hours behind, but then again, they're always behind. I issue the proverbial tripple-dog-dare to all of you. I dare you to watch one of the readily available beheading videos. Don't be a lilly-livered, squealing puss. Take the dare. Be sure to turn up the volume. Then dare imagaine it is happening to the person most close to you. For maximum effect, photoshop the head of your most dearest onto the video and watch it daily. If, after a week, you haven't decided you would do whatever it takes to prevent such attrocities from happening to your loved one......here comes the triple-dog-dare.....join the military and follow the path of "change from the inside." I encourage you to volunteer for duty in Afghanistan. The common sense gene pool would appreciate your short-lived service.

I'd love to just for 5 minutes, rewind the clock on all of you back to just after the 9-11 attacks, and say 'we captured some of them – they won't talk – there are probably more attacks planned – what do you think we should do?'
This is really not a wise argument. Its costly for taxpayers, and really the ONLY gain is for the Democratic party to chalk it up as a petty political victory, just as was the case when the Republicans threw Clinton under the bus for lying on the stand (rightfully so).
Extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. Thank you Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney for doing what it takes. We are all safe and continue to be.

ALL of you poor, stupid bleeding hearts are disgusting and you should leave this country, immediately. "call it was it is,,, torture." WHAT DO YOU IDIOTS THINK THESE PIECES OF CRAP DO TO OUR SOLDIERS WHEN THEY ARE CAUGHT??? If torturing one of these pieces of crap (and they are not human) save just one single American Solider, I saw string him up, waterboard him, hook him up to a nuclear power plant and turn on the juice.
And for ALL you dipholes that are still blaming Bush for everything... GET A LIFE ALREADY and STOP LIVING IN THE PAST. GET OVER IT and MOVE ON YOU MORONS!!!!!!

Are you kidding me? Have any of you ever seen what takes place in war? Have you ever dealt with a mentality that thinks life means nothing? That it is ok to kill innocent men, women & children. That you take out not only the infidels but everyone else around them innocent or not. Have you ever been under that stress? Have you ever had to to worry that the child walking up to you could be loaded with enough explosives and shrapnel to take out 60 people? Or that a mentally handicapped woman was wearing a vest under her garment?

In Somalia the militia in 1991 used women and children to hide behind so they could shoot at our soldiers and not be shot back. This is how our niceties are used against us. They would literally hide behind the women and shoot from behind them knowing that an American soldier would not fire at the so called innocent women.

When you are dealing with the mentalities that our soldiers are dealing with out there to protect all you whining idiots here in comfort of your warm comfy homes, you have to do things that we cannot imagine to stay alive and keep this country safe. These people are not using any tactics that aren't used on our own soldiers as we go through S.E.R.E. (Survival, evasion, Resistance, and escape) training. They don't actually torture but give the impression of torture to create fear, psychologically. There is no pain, permanent injury, or damage. When you are trying to obtain information from anyone you use tacticts that you wouldn't use on people you care about. You don't think the police, or other Law Enforcement agencies use Psychological techniques? Good cop, bad cop, etc.... How naive. This is the truly sad part, the state of our country that haven't a clue what has to be done to protect you. By the way.... when was the last time we had a 9/11? Case and point!!

In my opinion the Abu Ghraib scandal sounds like a standard CIA operation. This would include all the CIA and contractor personell who actually carried out the torture interrogations. I am sure they all have a copy of their orders to vindicate their actions and to be brought out if the need ever arises.
Besides having the authority to not tell anyone what they were doing, taking control over prison guards, doing their form of perverted interrogation and then shredding incriminating evidence just about sums it up for a successful operation.
This is a coverup that goes all the way to the commander in chief. It is even worse that President Bush and his senior officials, who are responciple for this fiasco, would let the prison guards and a Brigadier General take the rap.
How low can you sink before you take responsibility for what you do. Some of these guards may still be in prison and because nothing was said in their defence by these officials, these officials should be held responsible for sending them there.
Torture has got to be one of the worst criminal offences there is. We have thousands of inmates in prison for years for minor non-violent offences. Not to say they arent guilty but thats not even close to torture.
Torture is still spelled the same was as it was during WW2 and Viet-Nam. A memo doesn't change that.

We have laws in this country. Revenge is not justice. Nor is there any evidence to conclude that any of the prisoners held at Abu Ghraib were in any way responsible for 9/11, especially given that the Bush Administration, in the seven years since 9/11, could not provide an ounce of proof that Iraq was a threat to the security of the United States or was working with terrorists. It may be comfortable to lump everyone in the Middle East into the category of "bad guys" and assume that the US can do no evil, but the world is much more complicated.

Nor do these memos vindicate anyone. It is long established that the excuse of "just following orders" is insufficient. War Crimes are still War Crimes even when the US is responsible, even if many Americans are too blinded by pride and ignorance to admit it. The neoconservative ideology did more to degrade and weaken this nation than any outside force – terrorism, communism, Nazism, etc. – ever could.

Am I the only one here that thinks these soldiers should have said "No Sir, I can not follow that order. I believe it is an ILLEGAL ORDER, in voilation of article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Convention, and therefore I can not follow it." ??? They would have been arrested for failing to follow orders, and been court martialed, BUT they would have been in a very defendable position, both legaly, moraly, and politicaly. The UCMJ says that if you knowingly follow an illegal order you are just as guilty as those who gave the order. Sorry guys, they paid the price, BUT EVERYONE IN THAT CHAIN OF COMMAND ALL THE WAY UP TO BUSH should be made to answer for this!!! Not just the guys who carried out the orders! THAT INCLUDES THOSE IN THE CIA!!!

She was also demoted for shoplifting, but I guess if CNN mentions that she loses a little credibility. I could see how they would want to gloss over that.

You freakin arm chair soldiers need to wake up and smell the cordite. These "innocent prisoners" were terrorists. One commenter mention that "we don’t want them pointin’ at our prisoners and muttering ‘Abu Ghraib." Are you naive or just stupid? What do you think terrorists have done to our guys that have been captured? They cut their freakin heads off, mutilate their bodies while yelling Allah Akbar, like god somehow would approve. I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for these terrorists. Calling them "prisoners is almost laughable". Heaven forbid that some dumb privates humiliated them by making them pose naked. Was it stupid, sure, b/c there was no intelligence gathering from that, but criminal, please. If any one of you were captured by these terrorists then you would beg them to be treated in such a way, while gurgling on your own blood as they sliced your carotids. Bush and Cheney were idiots, yes, but I don't feel the slightest bit of remorse for waterboarding these killers, making them SIMULATE drowning in an effort to save more American lives. These people will do anything to ensure our destruction, they don't play by the same rules we do, and anyone that says that "we as americans are above that" have never seen their buddies blown up by these madmen. You live in your comfy house and watch tv and sit back and while we(Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines) see what you don't on CNN. We live with these scars that these people try to inflict upon us so you can continue to sit at Starbucks and second guess what you see on some photos and with your pretentious attitudes act like you are hurt because these stupid pranks have somehow harmed America's standing. We need to do whatever is necessary to these crazy SOB's so that they never can hit us at home again. Do I agree with the general that she was innocent of this, no. She knew what was going on, and she is trying to save face and get her star back. But it never deserved to be taken away in the first place for these folks being stupid.

MC,

Regarding your comment on not caring about what happens to detainees. 1) The folks at AbuGraib were not the same folks who did 9-11. 2) Regardless, WE are a nation of laws. We have laws and orders for how WE treat OUR prisoners. When a soldier fails to obey those laws, they are criminals under OUR code and officer who allows or orders such behavior is also a criminal under OUR codes.

Your statement indicates that terrorists can, by attacking us, not only kill a few thousand of us and knock down buildings, but can in the same act knock down our common decentcy and rule of law. Somewhere in a cave somewhere, your comment has brought a smile to the face of a terrorist who sees victory in forcing us to abandon OUR code of behavior. Good job.

After reading these comments, I am proud to see that many people disagree with the torture methods that wouldn't even be used on animals today. When people toruture people in such a way, you stoop to their level, you become them. So just as we are, the leading nation we should have not let this happen. Everyone who led out these commands and carried out the commands should be punished, inlcuding the adminstration officials who authoirzed them. They are all guilty.

I served 9 years in the U.S. Navy, the last three assigned to the military prison in Philadelphia as a corrections officer (a multi-service facility with Army, Air Force, and Navy staff and inmates). The Colonel is trying to blur the facts. The soldiers at her command were not convicted for actions taken in accordance with these memos – or interrogation at all. They were convicted of mistreatment of prisoners for sadistic acts outside of any interrogation.

And for those who say they were "just following orders" – we didn't accept this excuse from Nazis, we shouldn't accept it from our own troops. And, contrary to some of these posts, US milatary personnel CAN disobey an unlawful order. In fact, there's an affirmative obligation to refuse an unlawful order that will result in bodily harm to another.
She got off easy – and so did those convicted.

" The Nuremberg Trials established that soldiers have an obligation to object to immoral or illegal orders. “They were following orders” isn’t a valid defense. Karpinski is pathetic; she’s certainly aware of this. "

You can claim this all you want, but when the country is in a state of war, direct disobeys can get you shot/imprisoned, maybe the soldiers listened so they wouldnt face recourse at the time. Its not as easy as you think to say oh this isnt right when ur int he military, they dont train you to question.

Torture is reading comments by these jerks that try to justify our past use of waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques". The United States is a nation of laws and we must abide by them or deem ourselves just as corrupt as those that would do us harm. If we do not hold ourselves accountable, we certainly can't expect accountability from others.

Frankly speaking from my point of view, It made me ashamed
to see Americans acting so deplorably. Hopefully that General was dishonorably discharged and those soldiers who committed this
atrocity were too.

BS. The people under her command went WAY beyond what was authorized by the military, and yes, the administration.

And for those bleeding hearts that decry "torture" – be aware that the OBAMA administration has left the door open for the very same "torture" techniques that the Bush administration used. However, they claim that it would have to be authorized by committee. Typical doublespeak from ANY administration – one thing is said for the cameras and another is held back for actual use.

rawr, all the lefties are rallying their battle cry, get Bush, get Chaney, omg torture. You people are pathetic at best.

Wow, there sure are a lot of pro-torture folks out this AM. Can I ask if any of you consider yourselves Christian, and how do you reconcile your faith with this immoral behavior? You cannot treat people the way our military and CIA treat prisoners and expect anything but the same for any of our captured servicepeople. This is a sorry day for America. Bush took the American ideal of fairness and the rights of every man and skewed it to mean the rights of white Americans. That is just wrong! Of course I feel horrible about 9-11, but Iraq had nothing to do with that, and Bush knew it! Bush was also warned about an aerial attack in August of 2001, and kept chopping wood. So don't give me "Bush kept us safe" crap. We are more at risk now due to his choices and his disregard for human life....how many soldiers have died in his senseless war? More than were killed on 9-11.
So keep up your "24" mentality, but deep down, you either are a moral person or no better than the terrorists you hate so much. And we are either a moral country who will not tolerate war criminality, or we are no better than the Taliban.

I'm an active-duty military officer. Speaking for myself, and NOT in any official capacity, I think this woman is a complete and total joke. Any cadet in any of our nation's excellent military academies is well-schooled in the Geneva Conventions, the various laws that govern our conduct in war, and basic tenets of leadership. And ANY second lieutenant who graduated of any of our academies would've INSTANTLY known about everything going on in that prison by simply walking the halls and monitoring things. And any such graduate would've known enough to question what was going on and report it accordingly. This is what happens when someone with a degree in english from a little-known school in NJ is promoted well beyond her capabilities.

I am a female Army officer who has served in Iraq, twice, and this woman is an embarassment. What happened to accountability within your command? She's just passing the blame. She's a grown woman and senior officer who should take accountability for the horrors that occured in her unit. Her Soldiers were out of control and she didn't have the nerve to do anything about it. Thank God for positive role models in the Army like General Petreaus and General Dunwoody!

What a bunch of morns we've turned into! These soldiers never committed torture. Parading a captured thug around naked is NOT torture. Want to know what torture is? Study the Germans, the Japanese, the Russians, the Catholic Church. Someday, if I am ever tortured, I hope all it will involve is some humiliation.

If putting wire on some prisoner's head saved American soldier's lives, or if waterboarding a terrorist saved American lives in NYC, and you can't bring yourself to do it; don't worry. There are those of us who still will.

Wow, the ignorance on this board...

1st everyone in these prisons are not 'terrorists' most are just a bunch of Arabs our brave soldiers rounded up without reason/trial/evidence.

2nd all of you saying that 'just following orders' isnt an excuse have never served in the military. Just sit back and type about it on your computers, but dont judge men and women who are in a situation you can NEVER understand. (look up the Milgrim Experiment while youre at it)

3rd anyone saying what these men/women are doing isnt torture should try being deprived of sleep for three or four days while standing on a freaking box in total darkness. If you dont want to die after that, let me know.

Just look up the movie "Standard Operating Procedure" on google video for everything you need to know about this topic. Its the most comprehensive documentary I've seen on the issue.

None of us were there. War and general feelings toward the prisoners "terrorists" does a lot of strange things to people that they would not normally do.
Add to this... memos, SOP and Directives.. most of the troops in the field believe someone "Higher Up" had their backs.

After all, someone suggested it, reviewed it and later approved it... they just didn't count on a bunch of kids horseing around and taking photos.... but if the "Higher Up's" are still around – they probably have that section covered now.

As it goes to the bottom in all rights - it should go to the top.

For those who don't understand the miliyary system, If you refuse to follow orders, you get punished. It doesn't matter whether the orders were lawfull or not. You get punished. You have the opportunity to defend yourself, But tell me, would that defense hold up to the Bush/Chenney regime. It has taken 5 years for this to come out, and even now people are trying to defend the regime and blame the ones that they gave orders to. The General's interview explains that very well.
Thank God that we have a term limit for president. Too bad someone didn't to a mental eval on Bush/Chenney before they were let in the door. P.S. Don't forget about Rumsfeld!! (All 3 of them are still out there roaming the streets)

you people are all liberal morons, you probably dont have a job, never served your country, and have no idea of the real world. the reality of the situation is, to get information to protect your dumb asses, torture may be neccessary. what would happen if we did not torture to gain valuable information and your children were killed by a terrorist attack that was avoided by toture tactics. you would all be on the other side of the fence hanging Bush for not doing enough to protect us. the truth is that the Clinton admin. let down the gaurd of the United States to let the 9/11 attacks happen, the Bush Admin. has protected your asses since then, wo cares how he did it or how many towl heads he waterboarded or made walk around naked. Now with the Socialist regiem in the house who has already spent more money then Bush has ten fold, will try to disgrace america by publicly humiliating the previous administration for keeping our soil safe.

Let's all get a couple things straight:
1. The people held at Abu Graib were not "terrorists"; they had NOTHING to do with 9/11; these men (and women) were arbitrarily collected in sweeps through Bagdad and other areas of Iraq. The intent was to collect information about insurgents. Some of the individuals may have been complicit with attacks on those who had INVADED THEIR COUNTRY, but these "prisoners" were not being held for acts of terrorism.

2. Colonel Karpinski was not allowed to review the actions of her subordinates. The soldiers that were assisting "the civilians" were under orders to not discuss their "interogations" with others. The former Brigadier General was ORDERED to not involve herself with the CIA activity.

the only thing wrong with this situation is the fact that those soldiers were put in prison for following orders, and yes when in the service you have to follow orders. there was nothing criminal about what they did.

In the context of having in custody persons either involved in plotting 9/11 and/or plotting the next 9/11 and the need to extract information from those persons that could potentially save the lives of millions of Americans, the Bush administration was justified to explore the limits of what techniques could/should be used to extract that information. The tactics that were deemed "acceptable" may have crossed the line from "discomfort" to "torture" especially at the hands of those untrained to implement those tactics in a way that would not cross the line. None of these tactics, however, rise to the level of starvation, medical experimentaiton, mass execution etc. which is clearly torture and for which soldiers/officers in WWII invoked the "I was just following orders" defense.

Bodine ..... the best defense is a good offense. After 911 we had two options, wait for them to come back or take the fight to them. What could have been better than "moving into the neighborhood" over there?
We also had the "bonus" of removing the evil dictator who murdered thousands of his own people. Nope, I wasn't made a fool of... I thought it was a great plan. Don't take me wrong.... I would love to see a world free from evil the same as you. It's people like you that will hopefully find a solution.... in the mean time there is a lot of "dirty work" to be done to keep this country strong and safe.

I remember to well Bush saying God told him to attack Iraq. I think years from now we will still be learning of the stupidity of the Bush Chaney administration.

It wasn't right that these soldiers took the entire blame for this. Larger heads should roll. However, they did follow illegal orders and are complicit as well. I believe their actions were known all the way to the top. However, Nuremburg taught us that following orders is not a defense. And I think it's clear from the photos they were clearly enjoying themselves.

MC, you are assuming everyone in Abu Ghraib was a terrorist. These people were rounded up from certain neighborhoods wholesale and then tortured to see what they knew. Of course they sang like birds. If I wired you up to a battery and filled your cell with water you would tell me what I wanted to hear, too. Abu Ghraib created more terrorists than it uncovered. It appears in fighting these monsters we have become monsters ourselves.

What a Joke...

She takes no responsibility!!!

NONE...NONE of the memos even allude to what she allowed her soldiers to do.

LIBERAL SPIN!!!

My country graciously allowed me to serve 24 years in her military with pride and without prejudice. I challenge those posters, not only in regards to this article, but many more over the past few weeks, to get out and travel. Not just to the "sandbox", but countries like Tunisia, or Panama, or Romania. First hand experience would give you an insight into why previous administrations(yes, even Slick Willie's) make the decisions they do. You too would be concerned that we now have a "Rico Suave' " dealing with foreign leaders.
As a second thought, put yourself in this position. Would you rather have a hood over your head, kneeling before your captors, knowing that 24/7 for days on end, that you may at any second be decapitated? Or would you rather be "humiliated", or have a bug thrown in your cell? Which one would YOU call torture?

Janis Karpinski = poster-child for the Banality of Evil...

Wow, all those who condone torturing our prisoners are in turn condoning the torture of our soldiers when they are held captive by our enemy.

You would think someone signed in as Soldier's Wife would think a little harder about this scenario.

Putting aside the thought that the "old" administration is going to get away with its crimes here, there is one crime that I do not see how they are getting away with it! There were a crew of military men and a woman who got arrested, had thier lives destroyed, and went to jail all because of the lies told about them by thier higher officials! These officials lied in courts to condem these 7(?) people just so they could "get away with" yet another horrible crime to our military men and women (who die for our country and freedom daily) !! If the prez refuses to seek justice, why is it that all of them are not charged with the serious crimes done against OUR OWN MILITARY MEN AND WOMEN??? Lying, with holding evidence, committing purgery?? These are still acts that are illegal?? RIGHT?

People, what about our military? Everyone involved in that should go to jail. Even if they knew about it alone, but did no other acts! .. Makes you an accessory!! It is a shame when we have to proect our own militay from ourselves! But, it should be done! We need to protect our own and push for charges on behalf of thes fallguys!

Please don't compare any of this to nuremburg. Your right about 9/11, how owuld you classify that torture.

Omygosh – I've just read most of the comments posted. What a stupid, naive people we have become if the comments are representative of the American public. WAKE UP ! THOSE PEOPLE IN THE PRISON WANT TO SLAUGHTER YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN. THEY WANT TO DISEMBOWEL YOU IN FRONT OF YOUR WIFE. THEY WANT TO BEHEAD YOUR CHILDREN. THEY WANT TO FLY AIRPLANES INTO HEAVILY POPULATED BUILDINGS. All our soldiers did was humilate them a bit.. GET A GRIP, YOU IDIOTS.

Bob Archer, this comment is in response to yours – "When will everybody stop using the term “enhanced interrogation techniques” and call it what it is — torture. Pure and simple torture."

Waterboarding is not torture. Torture is physically damaging and leaves permanent effects. Waterboarding fits neither of those criteria, in fact, we waterboard our own servicemen as part of their training. "Enhanced interrogation techniques" is the proper term. Your comment would be more accurate if you simply stated that you are a bleeding-heart liberal who hates the military and the Republican Party. Your ilk makes me sick.

You freakin pansies kill me. If it weren't for the interrogation techniques that they used and still use, we would be getting our butts handed to us by every country in the world.

War is HELL!!! So is trying to win that war. Not for weak hearted liberals.

Ohhhh don't do that to them. What are we supposed to do? Ask them nicely if they have any intel that we can use? and when they say no send them back to their comfy cells (can't be too hard on them now can we) and let our sodiers die?

As long as there are people like you out there that want us to be soft on these people, we will not win a war. As long as the Taliban and other countries are not subject to the same rules that we are, we will LOSE. There is a reason we haven't won a War since WWII. You weak hearted IDIOTS.

Sit in a circle and sing feel good songs till People like Osama Bin Laden come here and take your country over. Then you will be begging people to help.

Has anyone actually read this article? The issue presented is not whether any of what occurred at Abu Ghraib was torture or not. Some of our military soldiers went to prison because the Bush administration and senior pentagon officials manipulated the military justice system and lied to the public because no one was willing to take responsibility for having authorized the techniques used at Abu Ghraib. Although I was appalled to find out what techniques were used at Abu Ghraib, I can understand how interrogation can rapidly turn into torture, specifically when you are dealing with these types of prisoners. What I cannot understand is letting U.S. soldiers who were following orders have their lives, families, and careers ruined. For those of you not in the military, you cannot understand how difficult it would be in those circumstances to "not follow orders", essentially ending your military career, particularly since the military lives and breathes loyalty.

This, like many others, is just another example of the criminal misuse of the entire US government by the Bush administration.

And for the record (MC and Former Soldier), the prisonsers at Abu Ghraib were not Al-queda. They were military prisonsers captured during a wartime operation. Guerillas yes, terrorists no. Don't for one moment ever suggest that any of those people had anything to do with 9/11. All of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, and were operating out of Afghanistan, not Iraq. Try reading the 9/11 commission report.

Anybody with any sense should be sick of this worthless (Bush did it!) nonsense. Uncivilized, barbaric creatures who blow people up, cut off heads, tell us we will convert to their religion or die, deserve NO protection

I disagree that Bush/Cheney/Runsfeld made us safer as Americans. They set a brutal standard that the rest of the world will not hesitate to rise to, and they engendered more resentment and bad feelings towards America from our adversaries. The administration from 2001 through Jan. 2009 were a bunch of numnuggets, and a higher power will judge their deeds, one by one. I recall reading that, before Sept. 11, 2001, there were warnings given in White House briefings that the Bush Administration completely ignored! Being stupid might not be grounds for eternal forgiveness.

I applaud what the Obama administration is doing to rectify this nightmare – the lapse in civil rights – that we lived through.

If waterboarding is torture, then my older brother tortured me for years in the swimming pool! The agents that waterboarded terrorists (or man-made disaster person or whatever Obama calls them now) had to be waterboarded themselves. They know what it is like. If they thought that their waterboarding experience was that bad, they would absolutely refuse to perform the task!

Talk to the Greatest Generation about torture (Bataan Death March). Talk to the people who were held captive in Vietnam (yes, even that wiley old John McCain). They experienced torture, not these terrorists in Gitmo who eat better and live better, at the taxpayers expense, than they would have in whatever desert they originally came from. I know that was politically incorrect.... from whatever dark, dank cave they originally came from.

It wasn't torture...get over your unrealistic liberal bias.

Saying I had permission, or orders, is not a bona fid defense. That is what we put the Nazis on trial for.

She wants to paint herself as a victim, but she was part of the crime.

We should forgive Bush, Cheney and the soldiers. But, if we can forgive people who torture, then why can't we forgive the terrorists and insurgents, too? Everybody makes mistakes because of fear.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind- Gandhi

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Still trying to blame someone else is she?

Those National Guard MP's were not interrogators. They were not extracting information from those prisoners, you can clearly see from those pictures that they were having the time of their lives while humilating those prisoners.

Abu Ghraib had nothing to do with interrogation and everything to do with a poorly trained, poorly led, poorly commanded group.

The memos from the White House were very specific, all you critics would do well to actually read them instead of invent in your heads what you want them to say.

Following orders is not an excuse.
The Nuremberg defence wasn't valid in 1947 and it isn't now.

I'm not saying what the soldiers did was right, but who are we to judge, sitting in North America in our mostly peaceful towns and cities. We have no idea the mental torture that American soldiers in Iraq and Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan go through.
Mistakes are made in every administration – we should learn from these mistakes and move on. It's called the past for a reason and I believe that the Obama administration is taking steps in order for history not to repeat itself, so Kudos to them.

God Bless all armed forces that defend our freedoms and liberties.

Bush and Cheney are evil – lots of people have known this for a long time. I thought that during the trials of these soldiers that they were serving as pawns to their evil-doing instructors – not that what they did should have been excused – but I don't understand why only the underlings are being punished. B&C have the mindsets of criminals and serial killers. I wonder how they will fulfill their evil power-tripping fantasies now. Probably will start hurting and killing small animals again – like when they were kids. I hope these two suffer immensely at some point in their lives.

I love reading blind ignorance and holier then thou stupidity. Here is the question you need to ask yourself. If you KNEW of an immanent threat to your child or loved one and asking nicely for the plan was not working would you use enhanced interrogation – Now you can lie to yourself and the world and say no-because it makes you feel better BUT the truth is deep down inside you know you would. So get off your high horses or false superiority and let it be.
Those men were not tortured – I wonder when innocent people were beheaded did they have a dr near by monitoring their pain to make sure they were ok?
How did our country become so stupid and so ignorant as to treat people who were trying to protect us into the enemy and people who HAVE VOWED TO KILL US the innocent?
OK, we all get it – you don't like war and you don't like having to make the tough decisions that keep us safe =- but it is amazing how you so openly enjoy the freedoms those choices have given you.

As a retired Colonel, I have no sympathy for Kapinsky. She compromised her integrity for career advancement and paid the price anyway. She was incompetent in providing leadership and guidance to subordinates. Plain and simple, the correct path can be the most difficult.

Would she not feel better today knowing she refused a directive she felt was wrong? Any officer who takes their "Oath" seriously would agree...but not her.

Having experienced deciding between career advancement and integrity, the latter is so much more rewarding in ways one could not imagine.

Hey - I've got an idea that might appease you folks. How about, the next time we catch a group of cold blooded genocidal maniacs, we take away their cookies and put them in time-out????

I thank God every day that our country is not defended by the likes of you….

Listen to all the chickens freely clucking and voicing their indignant opinions, safe in the coop and with no worries of any sort!!

I agree with several posters, it hasn't and doesn't fit the definition of torture.

But what has always distressed me is the fact that so many people who want to yell "torture is wrong" are the same ones who make the TV shows and movies so profitable.

They boo when the bad guys torture the hero but have been known to cheer when we hang a guy out of the window by his ankles and get the info and then pull him back in. Torture is dropping geuy. Pulling him back in is enhanced interrogation techniques.

How many of you yelling for "their" heads applauded or cheered when Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones just shot the guy with the whip?
How many watch any TV or movie "hero" rough up the bad guy or get sexy or seductive toward an awkward type to get info? Or just go see the gore and laugh and applaud because it's entertainment? Too many movies use torture as a plot device and make hordes of money. Where is your outrage then?

If you think it's cool in fiction then why is it we can't use these techniques that do NOT hurt/kill anyone to gain info that may well/have save(ed) lives?

All of the "gentlemen" humiliated in those photos walked out of there under their own steam and under no lasting pain. Can we say the same things of the victims of real torture under any of the despots we have opposed?

Colonel (Retired) Karpinski's arguement is deeply flawed and is based on her own personal agenda. She failed as a leader in the United States Army when serving in Iraq. She failed to lead her soldiers, train her soldiers, and enforce disipline on her soldiers that the Adu Ghraib facility. Her soldiers were abusing detainees. They were not engaging in "enhanced interrogation techniques" or "torture." They were simply abusing detainees because they enjoyed it for their own sick personal amusement. The soldiers and junior Noncommissioned officers involved in this incident committed crimes, period. Colonel (retired) Karpinski was just incompetent and should have never made it past the rank of Captain, but her pushiment was suitable. The former adminstration's policies, however flawed, are not directly responsible for the crimes these soldiers committed (i.e. they were just flowing orders); therefore, let the verdict stand. As for Colonel (retired) Karpinski, she should have the professionalism to be quiet, but I think she showed her lack of professionalism from the very beginning of this incident.

When these kind of tactics are used to get information, it only causes the individual to resist and hate America even more. Bush and Cheney authorized this, laughed about it and now he, Cheney wishes to justify their sinful behavior.

I say that you put Cheney, Bush and Rice on trial, render a guilty verdict and give them the same treatment that they inflicted upon others.

Let's see how much they can be humiliated.

Robert, torture can be mental or physical. Tricking someone into a fear of imminent death is indeed a form of "torture." Bob Archer is right – I call it what it is – Torture.

The soldiers had any amount of leeway to choose to act humanely to their prisoners. The sentences seem to fit the crime. Karpinski had a duty to make sure the prisoners in her care were held securely, safely, and treated humanely. She failed. She failed to know what was going on or to implement supervision via NCO's and company grade officers who could exercise that duty. There was a command break-down of frightening proportions. I believe she got off lightly and worse could have come her way. If she continues to carp that she is blameless in this horrible scandal reinforces to me she never truly grasped the nature of command, her duty in the command she was given, and how to use it.

LOAC – LAWS OF ARM COMBAT, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE is taught, told, briefed and lives by them as military personnel. GENEVA CONVENTION, apparently this Commander and her officer core at the time they were charged with this assignment DID NOT DO THIER JOBS. How can a Commander not know what is going on. NO MATTER WHAT THE SHIFT. I was in for 22 great years and I worked the dark side of the sun most of those years. I always had a Commander or Deputy around. Scheduled night shift or random inspections. They did not INSURE directives and policies were followed. Common sense and Human compasion should have raised questions. They failed in thier tasks. Shame on them, they shall live with what they did.

As a flight crew member in the military, I and my fellow crew members had to endure interrogation resistance training since we would be at risk of capture by enemy forces. What these prisoners where subjected to is no worse than what we experienced in training! Anyone who thinks they experienced "torture" doesn't understand the true meaning of the word. Ask our POW's from Vietnam and they'll educate you.

[...] General" Janis Karpinski So "Brigadier General" Karpinski feels vindicated after the release of the so-called torture memos.  First of all I put her rank in quotes because [...]